Burnout: Coming out the other side with Matthew Jackson (Part 2)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hello, and welcome back to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology hosted by me, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins. And today we are talking about something that most of us hope to avoid, but which many of us experience. It's burnout. It can be really shit, disorienting, isolating, really sucky, especially for those just starting out in the field. Eventually with burnout we hope that we get to the other side and our guest today is here to help us talk about this journey of coming to the other side. They were right in the thick of burnout and now they have come out and they're here to tell us all about it. Our guest today is Matthew Jackson. Hi, welcome.

[00:00:43] Matthew: I'm back.

[00:00:45] Bronwyn: You are back. Yes, it is wonderful to have you back. And Matt, just a few months ago, we were talking when you were in the thick of it. So you're experiencing burnout and yeah, now you are experiencing much less burnout.

[00:01:00] Matthew: Yeah, totally. The last time we spoke, I think a lot of my, uh, sort of focus, a lot of my attitude was I'm, I'm done with psychology. How do I, how do I get out of this? How do I exit gracefully? Um, maybe. How do I just get out? Um, period. Whereas now, uh, I don't, I don't feel that. I don't have that same attitude. I feel like a completely different person after coming out of the burnout.

[00:01:28] Bronwyn: Which is a pretty dramatic change because when you're in burnout, it can sometimes feel like it's lasting forever. And yeah, you've thrown in the towel and you're like, I'm done. I'm out of here.

[00:01:37] Matthew: And it definitely I think in previous years, I was noticing burnout occur, and I thought that that was like a 9 out of 10 burnout. But in reflection, those were probably like a 1, 2, 3. And this burnout that I experienced last year and early this year was very like 9, 9 and a half. Very close to a 10 and... it was so next level.

I think, if I think back on my previous burnout experiences, there were probably kind of, there were more of like a phase one and two, almost. Like, those symptoms bothered me, but they, they were manageable. I could do it. And I was able to use my self care techniques to get through them.

This burnout was completely different. These symptoms were not manageable. Self care did not work. And I exhausted my self care. Uh, that did not work. And it really was getting to that point of, oh, this isn't like a phase one or phase two. This is actually kind of the end. There is still hope. There is nothing more beyond this. This is how it's gonna be. So it really does feel like Oh, yep, this is forever now. There is no turning back. Okay.

[00:03:07] Bronwyn: So what did you notice in yourself? I guess sometimes it can be hard to notice it at the time, but do you have things in hindsight that you're thinking, oh yes, that was completely different about myself?

[00:03:18] Matthew: Yeah, and you know what? As I think back on it, I have them in like little categories.

[00:03:23] Bronwyn: Oh, I love this. So organized. A journey of my decline in categories. Yeah.

[00:03:32] Matthew: -it to like a psychologist, right? To, to categorize and find meaning in everything. Every tiny little speck of anything.

[00:03:42] Bronwyn: I'm on board with this. Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3. Yep. Does it have three? Is there three categories?

[00:03:51] Matthew: Do you know what? I would actually say there's five.

[00:03:53] Bronwyn: Five is okay.

[00:03:54] Matthew: I would say there's five. Um, and, uh, this isn't just my own experience. It's actually based on research.

[00:04:00] Bronwyn: Oh, cool. Oh, I love-

[00:04:01] Matthew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, um, as part of my new job, I went through, uh, the discussion straight into the new job yet, but, um, as part of the new job, one of my projects is actually researching burnout.

[00:04:13] Bronwyn: Wow. Oh.

[00:04:14] Matthew: Yes. And, um, there is actually a theory that there are five stages or five phases of burnout. So, um, when I was talking earlier, I think that's kind of what I mean by that phase one, phase two. There's that kind of honeymoon period, um, like an adjustment of, ooh, something's not quite right. And for me, that definitely looked like, okay, I'm going to bed later. I might not be as responsive to text messages or phone calls as I used to be, and I might be a little bit more impatient or short.

And then it, it moved through those phases into maybe, let's say, like, phase three, where I noticed I would come home from work and I was like, I'm craving a drink. Like, I need, I need some type of, like, substance to numb. Right? I would also say, further things in like Phase 3, if you will, was, um, I actually don't have the energy to give to family or friends.

[00:05:15] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:05:16] Matthew: I'm starting to notice I don't have it. And even when I would see family and friends, I felt numb, like, I have to actually distance myself from you. I know you want to tell me about your partner or what's happening at work, but I actually have to distance myself because I can't give you anything, I can't even give myself anything.

And then, It moved into that, like, stage 5 red zone, full blown burnout, where it was, I, I cannot be around people. And there were friends who I haven't even seen for over a year. Um, where I was getting to the point, I was getting to the point where I was almost craving alcohol. And as, you know, as somebody who, um, used to be like a smoker and is a very proud ex smoker for six years, I'm like, oh no, I've moved from one vice to another. Oh no. So that, you know, that was that, yeah, kind of stage five, if you will. I noticed that also, um, even when I did hang out with like friends, family, or my partner, if somebody expressed emotion, I would almost attempt to shut it down.

[00:06:24] Bronwyn: Oh, like in conversation, maybe shift topics.

[00:06:29] Matthew: Yes. Oh, shift topics. Um, be aggressive. Like, yeah, with my mum I was aggressive and I've never been like that with my mum. Behind that is like, I, I can't. I just cannot with this. And I can't even talk to you about it. I can't even tell you why not. I'm just going to shut this down immediately. And that kind of dismissive style was really impacting my relationships.

[00:06:57] Bronwyn: I bet it would have been maybe noticeable by the people around you, or maybe even a little bit frightening for them.

[00:07:06] Matthew: I think so, I think for me, an awakening moment was catching up with my best friend who I hadn't seen in months and um, she said to me, you know, we don't always have to be, like, nice to each other. We can still communicate. Like, we can still talk. And I was like, wait, we don't have to be nice to each other. Have I been mean?

Yeah, that type of awareness had gone, right? Because it was like, I'm in survival mode. I need to like, make the, the bricks to my house so strong that I'm, you know, I'm not letting anyone in. To the point where I was like, oh wait, I was mean? Oh no. And so that was a really like, okay, yeah, all right. I've, I'm totally aware that I've been avoiding her purposefully because I know that she'll pick up on it, and now that's being fed back to me. Oh, damn it.

Okay, so that was a real, like, okay, I'm seeing these, like, mental signs. I'm seeing these physical signs. Physiologically, my body was, like, falling apart, but Now, for my, like, relationships, oh, it's being fed back to me. And I also noticed that people, uh, you know, friends were really standoffish with me. I noticed that they were almost, like, uh, yeah, apart from my best friend, actually, they were all scared to even ask me, like, how are you or how's work?

[00:08:44] Bronwyn: Oh, we might set something off in Matt.

[00:08:46] Matthew: Yeah, right? And so, uh, not that they were tiptoeing. It was it... I was avoiding and now they were avoiding.

[00:08:54] Bronwyn: Oh, okay, so it was like a vicious cycle.

[00:08:57] Matthew: Totally, right? And it was just fueled. Like, that domino effect did not stop. Until, until I kind of stopped it, I guess.

[00:09:08] Bronwyn: It really sounds like you had nothing left to give. Like, everything was, it was so hard for you, without having any external input, like in the forms of emotion or somebody trying to discuss something. It's like, no, it's too much. I cannot handle.

[00:09:22] Matthew: Oh, completely. I, I remember reflecting in a session, like afterwards, I remember reflecting I'm purposefully showing emotion. So, what I mean by that is, I'm thinking in the moment, oh, I should smile now. Oh, I should look like I'm upset. Like, I'm not actually feeling it. I'm not empathizing with what that person is saying or feeling. I'm just going by a book.

[00:09:49] Bronwyn: So your there physically, but not emotionally.

[00:09:52] Matthew: Yeah, no. And I couldn't. I think it was kind of unsafe for me and for them for me to be present in that way. And it's not great practice to be just sitting there thinking like, oh, yeah, I should smile now. Okay, yeah. Yeah... That's so genuine and such a great, like, example of warmth and yeah.

[00:10:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh no, it sounds like a really awful time, Matt. Like, I'm really sorry you experienced that. Yeah.

[00:10:32] Matthew: Think, I think I was really lucky to be going through that burnout with a client of mine who was also experiencing burnout because what they were reporting to me, their level of awareness was so much better than mine, that what they were reporting to me, I was like, oh no. And because of that, I could really connect with what they were saying. And I was able to empathize without shifting that session to be like, okay, now let's talk about my burnout. And I'm the client now, right?

[00:11:08] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:09] Matthew: Never went there. But it, it was really helpful for me to, in those sessions, be able to sit back and say, Oh, I actually, I match that completely. Oh, okay. If, if we're using burnout language for you, maybe I should use the B word for me now. Like, maybe that's starting to fit.

[00:11:27] Bronwyn: No, I'm glad that you're able to have that insight through them. It's amazing how sometimes seeing the people's behaviours can provide that reflective, uh, I guess, jolt that in us.

[00:11:38] Matthew: Completely. That, like, Oh, you're experiencing that and that's the word you used. Huh. So, maybe that's the right thing for me?

[00:11:47] Bronwyn: Yeah. I guess take us through, Matt, You've, you're experiencing this level five burnout, you've had this moment of realisation with your friend that maybe I'm being mean to other people and they're noticing that and they're reflecting that back to me. What was next for you?

[00:12:03] Matthew: Next for me was pure, hardcore, raw honesty. I needed to be really, really honest with myself that the way that I was working was not functional for me. I needed to be really honest against all of those beautiful schemas that we have. I needed to be really honest and say, I totally hear you, schema And, providing therapy in this way, it's not working. I actually cannot do therapy at, at this moment. I need to actually shift into a completely different career, or do something else.

Um, I think it was also about being really honest with myself in regards to like, my thoughts, my emotions, my behaviours, my relationships. And, um, actually admitting to myself, like, yeah, I have been mean to people. Yeah, I have been avoiding that person because I do connect with them emotionally and I don't want to do that. So I have been avoiding them, and I have been drinking more, and I have been sleeping less, and all of those types of things.

I had to be really, really honest. Not critical. That's completely separate. But just really, really honest and kind of like that mirror that you spoke of, but really, really honest with myself and say, okay, these are the things that's going on. These are the things that are being reported to me. So what's that about and what am I going to do now?

[00:13:34] Bronwyn: Yeah, so without judgment. So, of course, like, okay, I've been drinking more, but not adding on the critic side, which would be like, and you're a piece of shit or something, for example. Yeah.

[00:13:44] Matthew: Right? And you're a piece, yeah, and you're a piece of shit, and you shouldn't talk about it, and you should hide it, and all of that, right? Like, no, actually, I'm gonna do the opposite. I'm going to admit it to myself, and I'm going to tell my friend about it, and I'm going to figure out, so what's behind that? Okay, cool, I need it for this, so what else can I do for that?

[00:14:07] Bronwyn: Wow, that's amazing. I feel very proud of you. Well done.

[00:14:10] Matthew: Thank you! And you know what? I think it was also about, maybe this is like step two for me, I don't, I don't know, but maybe this was my step two, was accepting that, that one, burnout is inevitable in psychology. I think when you work with people, right? Like, nursing, caring, any type of caring role, actually, I think that's a good, a good description, I like that. Any type of caring role, burnout's inevitable. And so I think I had to accept that. I also had to accept then, that my self care methods only really work in like, phase 1 and 2, or stage 1 and 2 of burnout. They really didn't help me from 3 to 5. They did nothing, they kind of failed, and, I think that really added to, to thoughts and feelings of hopelessness.

I had to be really, I need to be honest and again accepting, need to do more. This requires systemic change. This is personal change. I can't just, I can't just go to the hairdresser. I can't just go for a walk. I can't just run a bath. I've done all that. I have to actually do things that are going to change my life now.

[00:15:22] Bronwyn: Yeah. So things have to be substantially different, not just run of the mill.

[00:15:27] Matthew: No, I, I, I can't go to work, come home, and return to work and think that I'm going to feel different.

[00:15:33] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:15:34] Matthew: Something has to, it's like, I mean, something has to completely change. It's like I'm re-traumatizing my burnout. I'm re traumatizing myself each time I return to work each day.

[00:15:47] Bronwyn: Yeah. And was that at the point where you were thinking, okay, I've got to leave this workplace or I, some people are like, I'm going to change things within the workplace. I don't know. What were you thinking there?

[00:15:58] Matthew: I tried to change things in the workplace, um, both with my supervisor, my boss, my colleagues, um, like I changed supervisor altogether, which is like the first time I've ever done that. Um, I... yeah, I had discussions around like what type of, even like what type of therapies I could do anymore. Right, DBT is a very intensive therapy. And so I came to that conclusion of like, okay, well, maybe it's DBT. I'll take a break and do something that's not so, you know, intensive. Um, there were heaps of things that I put in place within the workplace itself. Uh, even shifting away from more complex cases to, you know, like one diagnosis. Type of case, you know, um, maybe a person who really was only wanting one to six sessions and that was it. And that did nothing. It actually didn't change. And I did that for maybe two or three months. So I really tried to hang in there. Uh, and nothing. I saw, noticed no changes whatsoever.

[00:17:08] Bronwyn: And thank you for saying that because I think sometimes this is the sort of advice that we can give to people where like, try and change which, which I would not recommend, but sometimes it can be overly simplistic and people like, I'll just change your workplace or just go for the bubble bath and it's like, that'll fix it. And we're talking about like we tried that and we need something else.

[00:17:29] Matthew: Yes.

[00:17:30] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:31] Matthew: I've done all the self care. I've had a million and one meetings with two different supervisors, uh, my manager, multiple staff members, I, uh, even in my private practice work, I did the same. I, um, went from working, uh, you know, I would work four Fridays in a month, right? I went from working four to three to two.

Like, I've, I've, I did everything, right? Everything they teach you at uni, all the research, all the books and manuals. I had done it. It had got to the point where it's like, I actually can't talk about this anymore, right? It's like, I can't keep going back to the same workplace. I'm re traumatizing myself and I can't keep talking about burnout because I'm still re traumatizing myself.

Like, is this it? There has to be something I can do. It can't just be, I'm in burnout. I'm at like stage five out of five and I just keep going?

[00:18:34] Bronwyn: I mean...

[00:18:35] Matthew: -be something else.

[00:18:36] Bronwyn: -got to be something. And was there a part of you that did have that hope in that things could be different? Because the way you're describing it, it does sound like it would be reasonable for you to be like, I feel trapped.

[00:18:48] Matthew: And I did. I, I felt trapped and I think I fell into the trap of that trap.

[00:18:53] Bronwyn: Yep. A trap among trap among trap. Yep.

[00:18:56] Matthew: Right? Like, do you know what? What an even more psycho like, psychology thing, right? That there's a trap of a trap. Oh my gosh. Um, yeah, I definitely fell into that trap. Um. And found myself thinking Found myself thinking If there is a next step, I don't know what it is. And I said, if there's a next step. So, there is still some hope there. I don't know what it is, but there's something there, you know.

And I think it really was that, again, being honest with myself and then moving towards that place of acceptance, where it felt so, it actually felt really comfortable to start looking for work. That was outside of direct client contact, that kind of standard, typical psychology that you think of. Feeling so comfortable in looking for those roles really helped reinforce that hope.

And, and, also making sure that I was talking, talking, seeking assistance, support, validation. from people who had that interest in mind. So, I noticed that there were colleagues, uh, and they will listen to this, and I'm okay to talk to them about this in time. Um, there were colleagues who I discussed this with quite openly, uh, who made attempts to pull me back in.

[00:20:40] Bronwyn: In to client work?

[00:20:41] Matthew: Back into client work. And I actually found that I would have to walk away, like, not even say anything to them. No rolling of the eyes, no, no, but I'd actually just have to walk...

[00:20:54] Bronwyn: Like, I can't engage in this conversation.

[00:20:56] Matthew: I can't engage because you actually are my burnout demon, right? Like, you're that schema in my head. You are that. So now I have to find a new person who's going to reinforce me looking for new work. Who's going to reinforce me, who's going to say, Yeah, you know what? None of your self care strategies are working. So what are you going to do now? Right? Rather than like, okay, well, you've tried a bath and you've done the deep breathing. Yeah, but have you touched grass this this weekend? Have you done that one, though?

[00:21:27] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:21:28] Matthew: It's like, that's not helping! Come on!

[00:21:30] Bronwyn: Yeah. I will touch all the fucking grass in one kilometre radius and it will not help!

[00:21:36] Matthew: Literally, it got to the point where I thought, if I hear one more fucking thing about mindfulness, I'm, I'm actually going to get, like, I'm gonna get so irate, I'm gonna have to flip a table because this is ridiculous. Shut up.

[00:21:55] Bronwyn: And it won't be mindful, and I won't do it mindfully!

[00:21:58] Matthew: When I throw this chair across the room and I'm shouting, I promise you I will not be present in my body. I hope-

[00:22:11] Bronwyn: I think-

[00:22:12] Matthew: -people get a giggle out of that.

[00:22:14] Bronwyn: I have, um, I think it really challenges people's identity as a psychologist, like to not do client work. So, I feel like for some people it's threatening for them to consider not doing client work. What do you think?

[00:22:28] Matthew: 100%.

[00:22:29] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:32] Matthew: And I, I say 100 percent because, um, who's ready for a truth bomb? I'm sitting here right now talking to you about burnout and leaving client work, and guess what? I still do client work.

[00:22:46] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:22:47] Matthew: Right? So where I work, I work there four days a week, and on that fifth day, I still do, like, online therapy. Right, like, one to one sessions. I do do I do do. How funny. I I do only see, like, a handful of people a day. And I am only available, uh, like, two Fridays out of a month. I don't extend beyond that now. However, now that it's coming up to time to like renew my um, registration again, for the first time ever, I actually noticed it this morning, for the first time ever I have this thought of, I think I'm only going to renew it for one more year.

[00:23:32] Bronwyn: Wow. Walk us through that. Like, what's your thoughts behind that?

[00:23:36] Matthew: So my thoughts behind that is, um, ever since I got general registration, I always thought, okay, I think my plan is to do this until I'm 50. And then at 50, you know, I'll search for another dream or something. Before and during burnout, it was, I'm, that's the plan, or I'm actually not interested in thinking about it.

After burnout, it's now, I have accepted that burnout is inevitable in psychology, and I'm not willing to put up with that for a lifetime. I'm not. And so I know that there's an end date that's much closer than 50 years old for me. So, I'm now playing it year by year. And that works better for my, um, schemas. It doesn't activate them as much.

And so when I saw the, you know, 100th reminder for renewal that you, you get, um, it was that thought of, Yeah, I'm comfortable with a year, and I will review this next September, and if I'm not comfortable renewing it for another year, then that will be it, and I will stop doing therapy, you know, November when my, when my registration ends.

So, I have had to, that's that part of that honesty and acceptance, I have had to be very brutal with myself now, uh, and this wasn't straight after burnout, this was, you know, a little bit of time after, uh, really reflect with myself that this is not a career that I can do forever. At least not in, at least not therapy, right? I can't do therapy psychology forever. I might be able to do other parts, I don't know, I haven't tried them. I cannot do therapy psychology forever. So, that's kind of where I'm at with that point.

[00:25:34] Bronwyn: What's it like to say that? Like, how does that impact on how you see yourself as a person? Does that question make sense?

[00:25:45] Matthew: it does, and I actually really love that. So, I'm noticing that even in my voice, I can tell I feel really comfortable and confident in saying that. It feels right for me.

[00:25:57] Bronwyn: Oh?

[00:25:59] Matthew: Yeah, it feels like I don't have to think about it and that the decision to walk away from therapy psychology doesn't have to be forever.

[00:26:10] Bronwyn: True.

[00:26:10] Matthew: But the decision to potentially, sorry, potentially walk away from therapy psychology in a year, next September, let's say, it doesn't actually mean anything about me as a person. It doesn't mean a single thing about me as a therapist, actually. It shows me... it shows me more about the profession and how I fit into it. More than a reflection of, of me as a, as a, as a person or as a, as a clinician, as a therapist.

[00:26:40] Bronwyn: I love that perspective.

[00:26:42] Matthew: Yeah. I, I, I don't wanna like shit on psychology. Right. I'm so glad that I got into this profession. I think, honestly, I was always meant to, I think it was in the cards. Like if I, if I look back in my life and I think about all the different words I took, they actually all do lead to this. So I'm, like, I've got to be honest, it was always going to happen. At the same time, it doesn't mean that I have to do it, like, every day. As many days in a full time capacity as I have to, do therapy, do this, do that. I don't have to, and I think that's okay. That thought though, like that's one come from burnout, but also two, it, it does require me to like really rewrite what I was told. You

[00:27:29] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Matthew: that like, I think actually I might have said this in a previous episode. I really was taught, I actually can remember the exact teacher who said it. I can remember the classroom. I can remember the sunshine coming through the window right now. I remember being taught by this lecturer that you either go into therapy or research and that's it. There is no other options. And I knew at the time I didn't like research because I like people. But I've realized now, I like people, but I actually don't like giving therapy to people. I actually don't like it, because I don't like what it does to me at the end of the day, right?

And so, um, being in this new role, I'm starting to realize, oh, I, I can like people, like I do, and I can use all of the knowledge and skills I have in psychology, put them together, and I've got the role I've got now. I don't have to do therapy to work with people.

[00:28:27] Bronwyn: Yeah. This is pretty profound to me because what you're saying is really, uh, I want to say the word rejection, but I think I'll say defining of your own standards for how you live your life.

[00:28:38] Matthew: Totally.

[00:28:39] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:28:41] Matthew: I do like, I do like that word rejection though. I, I think there is a part of me, uh, I can be quite punk in attitude. So there is a part of me that is rejecting the norm for psychologists. 100%, right? Yeah, totally. Um, and... and I am, I am rewriting what being a psychologist means to me. So, yeah, I think both of those, I think both of those comments are very accurate, actually.

[00:29:11] Bronwyn: Because I think it's really pumped into us, like you said, research or therapy. And, you know, I hear things all the time. It's like, you need to be doing three days of therapy a week to be considering yourself a psychologist. You know, just these kind of standards that we see and that we internalize and we apply to ourselves and if we're not doing that, we're less than, you know.

[00:29:31] Matthew: Yeah. It's, do you know what? It's literally ridiculous... I actually said this to a student not long ago. It is the most ridiculous thing because what makes you a psychologist is, like, having all of the degrees.

[00:29:44] Bronwyn: Yes, one. Yeah. I mean, yeah, duh.

[00:29:49] Matthew: Having all of those degrees, uh, or maybe I can speak for myself, um, having all of my, uh, degrees and, um, then completing the internship and all that sort of stuff and receiving registration, right? So, what makes me a psychologist is my degrees and my registration, right? And even if, even if next year I say, I actually am going to leave therapy and I don't renew my registration. I'm still technically a psychologist because of my, um, degrees.

[00:30:23] Bronwyn: Absolutely.

[00:30:24] Matthew: So it's, It's part of that like rewriting that I was talking about. I've had to remind myself that what makes me a psychologist is not the therapy part. That's a tool, right? It's not the therapy part. It's actually my degrees and registration.

But even like beyond that, it really is, it's the degrees. It's like how I, how I use them. That's what makes me a psychologist.

[00:30:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. Has anybody helped you through this process to reject or define your own standards, or has this been a process of heavy self reflection? 

[00:31:05] Matthew: Okay, the answer is this has been a process of self reflection, and I have had to purposely, so I think I'm gonna upset a few close colleagues of mine, but happy to. Um, I really have had to distance myself from those individuals who I think were offended by my journey. I think in openly saying to colleagues who I'm close with, I'm not happy in psychology, I'm not happy as a psychologist, I want out. I think it triggered certain things within some of them. Of course! Like, hello, of course it did. And there really was that like, not in the judgment, but again, that attempt to, like, pull me back almost.

[00:31:51] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:31:53] Matthew: I have had to push away from those individuals and just self reflect for me. I have had to, like, lay out the honesty, lay out the acceptance, lay out the, well, what is psychology? I have had to do all of that myself and be really, really cautious about who I talk about that to.

[00:32:12] Bronwyn: Has it been quite isolating for you?

[00:32:15] Matthew: It, uh, do you know what? I've got a yes and a no. So, yes, it's been isolating because I haven't been able to talk with colleagues about it. No, because it's actually brought me, it's brought me so much closer to my friends, my family, and my partner.

[00:32:36] Bronwyn: Lovely.

[00:32:37] Matthew: I've had to pull myself in the opposite direction to the people who truly know me, right, beyond like professionally, to the people who truly know me. I had a conversation with my best friend, I hope she, she probably won't mind me saying, uh, I had a conversation with my best friend, um, where I kind of laid this all out and she was like, yeah, I've been waiting for you to say that you're done with it.

[00:33:01] Bronwyn: She's like, I didn't want to say it, but I was just...

[00:33:02] Matthew: Right, right. And it was like, oh, oh, Oh my god, I'm not being judged for saying that!

Oh, my god! And, you know, um, she, she also works in a carer's role, so it was also like, okay, wait, can we validate each other here on just how hard it is to be in this type of job? So, I, I had to swing. I've had to move away from colleagues. Love you all, but I've had to move away from you. And really throw myself back into more of my social supports.

[00:33:37] Bronwyn: Yeah, I guess it's like when you take another path some doors close, but a lot of other doors can open.

[00:33:42] Matthew: Yeah, completely. I mean, even as I say that though, like, there are still some colleagues, of course, that I keep in touch with. But I'm really purposeful now about what topics I talk about them with. I do make it. Like, purposely, I do make it personal and not professional, right? I, I don't want to talk about psychology and the new thing with this therapy. I, I'm not interested, actually, because now I, like, when do I get to have the mat hat on? Like, I can't always be a psychologist. So, um, I have had to also think, like, okay.

But these are colleagues I do want to keep though, like, I want to keep these relationships. So, where are my boundaries with them in regards to talking about the profession?

[00:34:26] Bronwyn: Yeah, it's a lot to consider, isn't it? I, I don't want to make, I don't want to, like, because you mentioned earlier that you were a smoker and you're a non smoker now, and I don't want to make assumptions about your journey, but sometimes when we make those life changes, sometimes it can be similar in that we're leaving behind maybe like a group of people who you smoked with or something, and you're like, okay, well, I can't, I'm not going to, but I still want them in my life, but we have these boundaries, you know?

[00:34:50] Matthew: Yes. Oh, well, I mean, I had to leave behind my supervisor.

[00:34:53] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:34:54] Matthew: I had to, because this, this particular person was telling me, uh, like, you have to see eight clients a day.

[00:35:03] Bronwyn: Oh god. Oh. Oh.

[00:35:06] Matthew: And I'm not reading between the lines, that's verbatim, the words that were used, right? And that's like a part one. I won't even tell you all the other things that were said.

So I had to leave this person behind. That relationship is non existent, it's zero. And it will never, ever be at a 1 percent ever again. Because this person has a different idea of what makes a psychologist. And I cannot go back to that I can't.

[00:35:32] Bronwyn: That was making you sick.

[00:35:34] Matthew: Yeah, literally, just like the cigarettes were.

[00:35:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. Great comparison. Yeah.

[00:35:39] Matthew: Oh, when they hear this. Oh well. Sometimes you have to kind of, I don't know, maybe I'm making a judgment here and saying that I think we're all kind of aware of this, but you're right. Sometimes we do have to take a stand and purposely close doors just so new ones can open. And I, I do not regret closing that door.

[00:36:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. And it was a decision made in the interest of like your health, your wellbeing, your life. Like you were really unwell. Like burnout is not, you know, and I've said this on the podcast before, burnout isn't something that you're just like, Oh, I'm banned out. Flicks hair. Okay. Bye. It's really, it's really serious. It's really, really serious.

[00:36:21] Matthew: Yes, and it, it's, it's not even the, like, it's not even just the, like, mental, physical, social things, it, like, the physiological illnesses and things that I was experiencing, going to GPs, going to remedial massages and this person and that, and they were like, but there's, there's nothing there.

And I'm like, but, but I'm telling you, that's a pa- I can feel it. There's a pain. And it's like, well, well, what's that about then? You know, if these experts, multiple experts, are telling me, no, there's nothing there. Like, you're, you're literally healthy in this regard. Then it's like, well, where's this coming from then? What, what, what's manifesting there?

[00:37:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, and on that, like, we don't have to learn lessons from our experiences and it may be too soon, but do you feel like there's anything you're taking away from what you've experienced over the past few months, years?

[00:37:15] Matthew: Oh, so many things I'm taking away. The amount of lessons I learned have slapped me in the face, but gladly. Like, I'm, I'm really glad they have.

Um, The things that I'm taking away are prioritizing myself. I have to come first. I think something I'm also taking away is that, like, how do I put this, work is work and it's replaceable, right? The, like, if you think about, you know, working in a big corporation, there's that kind of saying of, like, you know, we're all replaceable. Well, so is work. It is replaceable. It isn't my end of the day thing. I am my end of the day thing. You know, I have to make sure my body's running. I, I really don't have to make sure work's running. I don't. That's why they pay CEO millions of dollars. That's their job. So they can deal with that.

Um, I think another takeaway is self care can't cure everything, right? Um, I have had to be very reflective, very organized, in that, like, this particular thing, for example, taking a bath is really great when I'm feeling this or I'm thinking this particular thought. Anything out of that, don't even think about it. So I've had, I've had to be really restrictive.

I have also, and this is probably the biggest, like, takeaway for me, is that I have to have my own back. I can't expect my supervisors, my managers, my colleagues, I can't expect anybody else to have my back. I don't have my back.

I have, I mean, I have to come first. I have to think about me first. So I think those are the takeaways. And yeah, I'll throw one more in, I think my other takeaway is that, like, It is actually okay to step back from what you know and ask, is there more? Is, are there other interpretations? Are there other things?

Right? Like, I had to do that. I had to step back and say, is there more to this profession than therapy? I'm so glad I did.

[00:39:26] Bronwyn: And that's really important. I think that'll resonate with a lot of listeners because I think we're taught we'll just keep pushing, it'll be easier. So it's like, once you get through it, like in two years time, you'll be more practiced, it will be easier, you'll be, it will be less impactful from therapy. And sometimes we can just keep on pushing without asking is like, maybe this is not right for me.

[00:39:47] Matthew: Yeah, I love the way you said that. I'm so glad you said that, because I think that's where I'm at. It's that, like, therapy, I love hearing people's stories. But hearing people's stories and then really sitting with that, uh, high intensity, complex emotion and the, like, actions that come from that, that's not for me.

[00:40:09] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:40:10] Matthew: It's not for me. My, my brain loves hearing people's stories to the point where I absorb them. And I don't want to not absorb them, right? Like, I, I almost have to, otherwise I can't feel anything for them. And that was evident in my burnout. So, 100 percent that, like, I want to hear people's stories, but I, I don't want to hear it in this way. And so it is okay for me to, like, walk away from this.

[00:40:36] Bronwyn: Totally. No, thank you for sharing that. Again, I think it would be really helpful. And yeah, all your other takeaways as well, really helpful.

[00:40:43] Matthew: Yeah.

[00:40:44] Bronwyn: I guess I'm wondering with your current role, could you just take us through what, what you do and whether you had any anxiety, like, oh shit, how do I actually do this different thing?

[00:40:56] Matthew: Oh yeah! Ha ha ha ha ha! So, um, I might not mention the, uh, company's name because they haven't, you know, said yes and whatever. Um, but I do work for a government organisation. Um, I am a well being, um, uh, like coordinator, if you will. Um, and essentially my role is many different things. I've got my hand in so many different pies, but it's essentially a lot of project work that is well being based for their staff.

[00:41:31] Bronwyn: That's cool.

[00:41:32] Matthew: Right? Like quite like, I'll get back to point two, but quite literally what I'm doing is like online webinars and in person face to face trainings, and guidelines and things like that on like, um, company well being on like, yeah, on language that promotes, um, psychological safety. Like, that's what I'm doing. Literally using all of my knowledge and skills. It's like, yes!

Um, and the second part is what I love to do. I'm, I'm actually leading a team that, um, is all about providing support to people in the workplace. And that, that allows me to get that people component. It allows me to get people's stories without like, okay, now how, how do I work with you on this? It's like, no, that's actually not part of my role. Right? So I still get to work with people. I get to be the people people.

So that is my role now. It isn't like face to face, um, you know, direct client therapy. It is more like, this is an organization. They know that, you know, burnout and well being's a thing, so I need to create programs around that.

And it has been terrifying, right? Day one was literally like, oh my god, oh, I don't want to do this. I want to, like, run away because I, I'm, I can't just walk in through the doors and say, right, who's my 9am right? I, I'm coming in and I know, Nothing about anything. There's not a single thing I know. It reminded me of like my first ever like psychology job, right? Getting my first like 50 clients or whatever, where I was like, okay, but, but what do I do? And you know, I still feel that totally, you know, three, three plus months in, I still feel like, am I good at this? Can I do this? And I, I have to remind myself that like, yes, because I'm using my knowledge and skills, I know I'm good at this. It's just new. I don't have my back to back clients that I've gotten used to for the last five, six, however many years, right? It's new processes. And that is kind of exciting in and of itself. Like, it's creating new behaviors.

[00:43:48] Bronwyn: I mean, so like, I mean, this is like I say to clients who, um, who have had negative relationships and they go into like a secure relationship and it feels, um, bad to them because it's not familiar. And I'm like, just because it's unfamiliar doesn't mean it's unsafe. Um, yeah. So it's like, just because you don't know what you're doing doesn't mean it's bad.

It's like, it's so normal when you go into a workplace, it's like you know nothing because you're new and you're not expected to know everything because you're new.

[00:44:17] Matthew: Yeah.

[00:44:18] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:44:20] Matthew: Quite literally. And it's, it's so cool to be working in a team where the feedback I hear is like, I'm so glad you're here because your knowledge and skills is something that, like, we don't have. so it's like perfect because I can come to you for this and da da da. It's like, oh, wait, I'm useful. I haven't heard that before.

[00:44:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh my god. I know.

[00:44:44] Matthew: You know?

[00:44:45] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:44:46] Matthew: Like, I was thinking about it today that like I'm, to this current team, I'm more than just these qualifications and practice this many years and see these amount of clients a day. I'm, I'm, so much more than that to them. And that's, uh, very like, whoa, this is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to matter. You know, I wanted to have purpose. Oh, that feels really good, actually.

[00:45:12] Bronwyn: Like bringing up something that like, I think it's just clicked for me, which is just like, it's so true that it's like, um, maybe if we don't see six or eight clients a day, the employer will be like, oh, you know, you're behind, you're not doing as well. And then you don't get that good feedback. It's like, I've seen six clients. I've made a difference in like six people's lives today. We never hear that. We only hear about how we're failing.

[00:45:34] Matthew: Yes.

[00:45:35] Bronwyn: Ah.

[00:45:38] Matthew: Right. Whereas like in the current team, sure, I've, I've, you know, received feedback on like, hey, could you do this? You know, more like this, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Right. Everyone gets it. Um, but the, the, the pros, the like, you know, clapping on the hand and patting on the back, it is so different to what I've had. And, I've always wondered, like, why, why is the praise that I've had not felt anything? It's not like it's felt uncomfortable and I've rejected it. It just hasn't meant anything to me. I've always wondered that. And now that I received this praise in this way, it means something and I can feel it. And I'm like, oh, I, I, okay, got it. Yeah. I can make that connection.

[00:46:21] Bronwyn: No, that's really nice. Um, I'm so glad for you that this role is, you feel valued. You're using your knowledge and skills. You feel like you're making a difference. Good stuff.

[00:46:33] Matthew: Yeah, I, you know, I'm regularly reminded, this is actually a conversation I just had, um, with the psychologist who sits next to me, um, I'm regularly reminded by the fact that there are thousands of psychologists in this country. They can help these individuals, right? They can do that. I, I was one of them and I'm no longer one of them and that's fine because these group of people need me.

And the group that I'm, have left behind and still kind of leaving behind to a degree, they have others who can work with them and that's also fine.

[00:47:13] Bronwyn: And maybe, maybe a final question is that, do you feel that experiencing burnout has better prepared you for the future? And I guess any signs and symptoms of burnout that you might experience?

[00:47:29] Matthew: Do you know what, can I say something even more wild than what I said earlier? Oh no, okay. Alright, I hope everyone's sitting down for this one. Um, I'm so glad that I experienced burnout.

[00:47:43] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:47:44] Matthew: I know, I know. Just let it sit. Everyone just like, let it sit for a sec. Just hear me out.

[00:47:50] Bronwyn: I'm going to put that, I'm going to put that full thing on your quote tile. So it's got to be, I'm so glad I experienced burnout. And then it's going to be sit down, like, wait, wait, hear me out. And that's going to be the full quote.

[00:48:04] Matthew: I love that! I want that on a t shirt, that's merch, okay?

[00:48:09] Bronwyn: That'd be a great merch yep, cool. Okay, go on.

[00:48:13] Matthew: Okay, so, of course, um, all of the phases that I've described, right, were horrible, all the way to horrific. The symptoms, mental, physical, physiological, um, horrific, sometimes actually debilitating.

The person I am now, on the other side of burnout, is a completely different person. I'm completely different. I'm not the same person as I was. My thoughts are different, my relationship with my emotions are different, the way that I see life is completely different. I don't have that same thought of like, alright, I can stay back five minutes, it's just five minutes. Or, Ah, yeah, my boss is right, I only saw seven out of eight clients today. Yeah, I need to work harder. Like, that's gone. That's not there. I don't think like that. None of those thoughts are prompted by anything.

I enjoy life now. My relationships are like, number one to me. Work is like, not even in the top five. Probably not even in the top ten if I thought about it. You know, it's just a thing that I do. I am not phased by it. I don't think about work. I don't. I come home and it's like, cool, so what activity do I want to do? I don't think about it.

I'm glad that I went through it because I think I was always meant to. So similar to how I said I think I was always meant to be a psychologist, I think that was like a finite point in my life. I also think burnout was a finite point. I think studying psychology was like the start. And burnout was the end. That, that was always meant to happen, it was always going to happen. No matter how many times I fought it with self care and, you know, whatever else bullshit. Um, it was always meant to happen. And the moment that I stopped fighting it, I was honest, I accepted, and I just felt the burnout, allowed myself to feel it, and then made those changes, that's where life changed for me.

So, I'm glad that I experienced a burnout, because I don't think I would be where I am right now, having this conversation, enjoying life, not hating myself and hating the world and hating my career and da da da, if I hadn't have gone through it. I would still be trying to fight it.

[00:50:43] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:50:43] Matthew: I would. I'd still be denying that, like, it's inevitable and that's a thing and that, yeah, I just have to take a deep breath and I'll be fine. I'd still be fighting it. So, I know it sounds weird and I hope that seat is comfy. I'm glad I went through it. I am. It's changed my life. I'm a totally different person.

[00:51:03] Bronwyn: Awesome.

[00:51:05] Matthew: Yeah.

[00:51:06] Bronwyn: That's super cool. No, I'm glad that, I'm glad that you're well and truly, where you are now. good. It's a much nicer place to be. Yeah.

[00:51:16] Matthew: Do you know what? It would be so interesting to listen back to that last episode we did on Burnout, funnily enough. Um, and just like hear, hear myself?

[00:51:28] Bronwyn: I remember your voice sounded very depressing. depressy.

[00:51:33] Matthew: Oh, I just, I don't remember that. Okay.

[00:51:35] Bronwyn: I haven't listened back to it, but I do remember, um, thinking in my head, I was like, Matt sounds really flat and really down and quite depressy.

[00:51:44] Matthew: Whoa. Oh, that, see, that feels confronting to listen to. I would really love to now.

[00:51:50] Bronwyn: Well, you will hear it in this, in this feed sometime. Yeah.

[00:51:54] Matthew: I, I think that, that would also help solidify like, oh my god, I'm so glad that I did this.

[00:51:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. And I remember you were talking a bit slower as well. Like right now you sound pretty animated and quite energetic. And I remember Matt's like really flat, really slow. Like, yeah.

[00:52:10] Matthew: Wow, I think I might have even I'm pretty sure I like, cried that day too, because of like, just work. Interesting. Anyway, that's total side note, but I guess what I'm trying to get at there is that like, even that experience, it's, it's, I don't experience that. Like, I don't feel flat. I don't, I don't think I sound depressed. Um, I, I, I enjoy things now.

[00:52:38] Bronwyn: No, that's pretty evident. Yeah, it's a much different tone. So yeah, I'm really pleased to for you. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with listeners. I think it's a really important conversation. I always think the conversations that, like these ones, they're not talked about, and they need to be talked about.

[00:52:54] Matthew: Yes! I think we need to like, I think as psychologists, we're so good at saying to our clients, hey, you know, do you feel comfortable talking about your sadness today? Right? So, why are we not doing that for one ourselves and to each other?

[00:53:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, I mean, self preservation, living a lie...

[00:53:14] Matthew: True.

[00:53:17] Bronwyn: But you know, like, like you said, that doesn't get us very far if we're constantly fighting against something. It's, it's far better, I think, to have these honest conversations. So again, thank you. I'm very glad that you've come through the other side. And thank you for sharing these experiences with us. Really valuable.

[00:53:31] Matthew: Thank you.

[00:53:33] Bronwyn: Okay, I think that wraps it up.

[00:53:35] Matthew: Yay!

[00:53:37] Bronwyn: Listeners, thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we enjoyed creating it. And if you want to hear more episodes, please do follow the podcast and Matt's other episode on burnout should be the episode before this. That's my plan to release this before and then this is like an after. Um, so if you haven't listened to that episode, I'll pop the link in the show notes and then you can listen to that before and then you can do a comparison. Or whatever. Whatever you want to do. I don't know mind. Just give it a listen.

Okay, thanks so much Mental Workers, take care, catch you next time, bye!