How theatre can transform mental health promotion (with Ally Kelly)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You are listening to the Mental Work Podcast, the podcast about working in mental health, for mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about arts programs for mental health, and we're also talking about mental health leadership.

[00:00:20] For many early career mental health workers, finding creative ways to engage clients and the broader public can feel really daunting, especially when they don't seem to resonate with traditional approaches to mental health. In this episode, we're going to explore how the arts can be a really powerful tool to tackle big topics like mental health, education and prevention. And we're also gonna hear about our guest journey to being a mental health leader. You'll hear practical insights and hopefully some takeaways that you can use for your own practice or even your own leadership aspirations.

[00:00:51] So our guest today to help us all out is Ally Kelly. Hi Ally.

[00:00:56] Ally: How's it going?

[00:00:57] Bronwyn: I'm going well, thank you. Ally, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non-work passion is?

[00:01:05] Ally: Mm, absolutely. To introduce myself, I just wanna start with sharing, uh, I come from the traditional bloodline of the Peruvian Incas, that's from my, my mother's lineage. And my father, who's been an Aussie and from, uh, the Kelly side of our family have been in Australia since the 18th century.

[00:01:26] Uh, a little bit about me is I come from a lived experience background. Uh, my first memory of mental illness in the household was age six when I became a carer for my mother, who's had mental health issues throughout her life. Now, in this older adult phase, it is sad, but we are experiencing some psychosis that's coming in and out. Coming from a place of lived experience, I too am a survivor of PTSD and have gone through the system and, and fortunate enough, I'm the generation that got help.

[00:01:59] And, um, part of that help journey, I was able to experience some of the ins and the outs and the pain points that the mental health sector may face, which very much positioned me to advocacy, right. So I come from a psychology background and a creative arts background, and part of me was extremely passionate about using a health promotion model to educate the public to know what to do in that time of need and how to navigate this healthcare system.

[00:02:31] To answer what I do in my spare time, though, uh, very much I resonate with the creative arts and arts for wellness. I love, love, love singing. I believe I found my voice, early days in high school and even these days, uh, arts play a big role in this wellness journey. So on the weekends, I'm known to do some cross-stitch.

[00:02:55] Bronwyn: Excellent. That's awesome. I'm so pleased that we can have your lived experience perspective, on the podcast. We have mental health professionals on the podcast who have had their lived experience perspective, but I really like that you bring that to the forefront of what you do. It sounds like it's really your guiding light to why you set up your organization, which is Mind Blank, right?

[00:03:14] Ally: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the Mind Blank organization was certainly seeded from a suicide prevention initiative. I found within my own story multiple times where I've had to intervene with suicide ideation, and what I now realize is it's become a strength of mine. How do we build a safe space for community members? How do we deescalate some of that mental health distress and support our loved ones? So these are skills I now have, and that's the gift to be able to give that back to community through some of our work.

[00:03:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. So could you tell us a bit about the work that Mind Blank does? Like, it sounds like it's preventative and educative. Gosh, that's a hard word to say, but there's two things, but, but let me know if I'm wrong or if it's broader than that.

[00:04:02] Ally: Yeah, great question. Uh, so the bottom line is Mind Blank is a registered health promotion charity. So why we exist is we are a health promotion model. My vision is, imagine that world where we all knew what to do in a time of need and we all had skills to deescalate distress, or we were able to hold space for those who need extra love and attention.

[00:04:32] Uh, if we had some of these simple skills in community, we do not have to see the healthcare system max out where there's six weeks to six month waiting lists. Uh, that's a vision that I would like to see in this world. I am a huge advocate for how do we build prevention? How do we build that next generation with skills before they even need them so that we can fast track their journey into the system a lot earlier.

[00:05:05] It makes a lot of sense... when we wait for those crisis moments, it becomes too much of the too hard basket and it becomes really hard for the health professionals as well, right? It's too late in that journey sometimes to intervene to our best standards. So the sooner we get people in, the sooner we can get people back into that wellness cycle.

[00:05:25] What we do with Mind Blank. I've actually had some clients describe us of, you know, a mental health First Aid. Well, it's mental health First aid, but it's more fun and it's more engaging. That's their words. That's where, uh, what we actually do. Our point of difference from the health promotion model is we stage stories of lived experience of mental health. Right? And I'll tell you now, the story ends really badly.

[00:05:54] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:05:55] Ally: That's not the point. We have a forum facilitator that works with professional actors to tell these stories. The story ends on a downward spiral, but the facilitator then starts forum discussion where we get to go back through that person's storyline and intervene with all these different points in their life so that we can make different choices.

[00:06:20] So we get to shine a light on what does actually early intervention look like. And we initially started Mind Blank working with schools. 'cause if we work with the younger generation, we can hopefully prevent these downward spirals, uh, peaking at points where it is too late.

[00:06:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, like you can change people's trajectories.

[00:06:42] Ally: Absolutely. For example, in the depression, awareness, suicide prevention space, if we are capturing a story, uh, a lived experience story that we often use, paints a picture of change in a young person's life that has led to isolation, a disconnection from peers, this confusion of... when people sometimes, like the general public may develop a mental illness, they may not have the terms to know what terminology do I need to describe what my body's going through. I, I actually don't have this self-awareness yet to realize that I may be struggling and without knowing the skills to communicate what's going on, there's a lot of missed opportunities we see in that person's life with intervention with it, teachers or intervention with other trusted adults. And often we find the pitfalls of some dysfunctional behaviors could start to develop. So coping mechanisms like drugs and alcohol could, could be a a, a way that could be introduced early on that then could lead to addictions. Right? Um, and we see it in people's stories sometimes that homelessness and mental illness goes hand in hand.

[00:08:00] So within that context, we're able to take the story back to the start and... life skills. Let's focus on, okay, well, building peer connections. You know, acknowledging life can be hard. Things are out of your control. Uh, sometimes people may not have the social skills around them to potentially intervene or make common ground connections.

[00:08:25] So with a role play model, we're able to go back to that same scene and try out different interactions. 'cause sometimes it's just setting perspective. Like the first people you come across may not be that friendly, or maybe it's unrealistic to instantly make new friends in a new town, you know? Um, getting a chance to go back and do it again gives everyone this insight and perspective that there are actually other options.

[00:08:57] The initial characters struggling from depression, so negative self-talk. We can start to model some of these signs that we may see. That could be a typical reaction to feeling isolated. Uh, we're able to stage an intervention where a teacher reaches out to this child. Part of that going back and redoing that scene is to show them that the teacher sometimes may not have the skills, themselves.

[00:09:27] So sometimes teenagers, for example, they build up all their courage and they ask for help. And if it doesn't go well, they lock themselves up and realize I can't trust the world, you know? Uh, but a fair point where we get a chance to go back is to help explain that us adults get things wrong all the time, and the first person you ask for help may not be that helpful. So we've gotta keep asking for help. Right. We've gotta build that tenacity and, and build our language to help describe a potential pathway that could be a circuit breaker.

[00:10:02] Bronwyn: Yeah. I love everything that you do. It sounds awesome. And I think all mental health professionals would be on board as well, because we're increasingly seeing people come to our services who are more complex than, I guess maybe we were taught in uni about, so maybe in uni we were like, okay, you're gonna see someone with depression and then you can do six sessions of CBT with them, and then they'll have some symptom improvement and that'll be great.

[00:10:26] Um, but the kinds of people we're seeing using services now have got. Some really troubling circumstances that they're experiencing, plus a lot of mental health systems on top of that. Um, plus some really difficult, like you can't shine, uh, you know, you can't silver line this circumstance. It's really hard. Um, so we're seeing really complex people and I think all of us wish that more prevention was in place. So it sounds like Mind Blank is filling a really important gap. I wanted to ask you about what do, what do young people say about the program?

[00:10:57] Ally: Look, we've done research through the University of Wollongong and independent studies and evaluations throughout the 13 years that we've been around. Young people are often saying they have a lot of fun. They love that it's a platform as a youth voice, so we're giving them a space to play.

[00:11:19] Um, but look, we, we get a lot of feedback around helping them understand how mental health initially could develop. It's not everyone's story, but when you see the characters go from bubbly personality, lots of peers, to the opposite end of the story where they're isolated, uh, struggling, drug and alcohol use, you know, huge contrast. So they can see some of those micro steps sometimes coming in. So we know that that's feedback that we get from them. Um, but generally they love that interactive format. Um, and our organization doesn't just work with children, it's just that children is the early intervention angle.

[00:12:04] Bronwyn: That makes sense.

[00:12:05] Ally: We love working with primary school kids because they're at that stage where some of that stigma hasn't developed.

[00:12:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, I was thinking in my mind of stigma and I thought this would be a great way to reduce stigma. Because people are, they can be fearful of mental illness or mental health challenges, and they may bring some things that they've learned from other people or society around them. I always use the example in my mental health first aid of like, you never see like the crazed asthmatic, like a story about that. It's always the crazed psycho.

[00:12:36] Um, so people always have negative interpretations of people and, uh, assign mental illness to that person when it might have nothing to do with it or they might associate it with that person being dangerous and that you should really back off. Um, so yeah. Do you see differences in people's attitudes towards mental illness as a result of your program?

[00:12:55] Ally: Oh, absolutely. The primary school kids, we find that stigma hasn't quite developed yet, so quite a lot of them are really enthusiastic. We see the common pattern, regardless of age bracket, is... so think about our brains. Like when you think about it, we are not doing anything too innovative because we are just telling stories and stories of what our ancestors did. So our brains are already wired to that. So people self project their own story to it, regardless of what the story is. So you see primary school children saying, that's me when I talk to mom. That's the argument that I have, you know?

[00:13:34] You see that same pattern with high school kids. High school kids, it takes a little bit, um, little bit more effort to kind of crack the ice and win them over. And we need strong facilitators in place to be able to handle the heckling that the teenagers throw at them.

[00:13:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:53] Ally: But the worst ones in terms of stigma is actually our adult cohorts. So...

[00:14:00] Bronwyn: Interesting.

[00:14:00] Ally: ... so we work with not just schools, but communities and workplaces as well.

[00:14:06] We work alongside mental health first aid trainers 'cause we love it when people go through the program and understand the ALGAE framework. We just find sometimes, people need the ALGAE framework brought to life. You know, someone who may not have skills in intervening in a mental health crisis yet may not have the knowledge or experience to have been in a situation where you are waiting for hours for the emergency service to come. Yeah. And sometimes there's quite a lot of uncertainty in that process. You might have called the emergency services, and sometimes we're left out of knowing what happens next if you've intervened with a bystander. Right. And so there's this worry that we could carry or this anxiety, did I do the right thing? Did I do enough? You know, so a workplace program can be tailored to the context of what are the psychosocial hazards they may face in their workplace, and then how do we apply the ALGAE framework towards seeking help for that individual? Or how do we mitigate some of these hazards we may see to keep staff well? And um, there's lots we could do in this prevention space to mitigate burnout. Um, so Yeah. it's really interesting to see how you can apply to different context.

[00:15:22] Bronwyn: That's awesome. No, I'm so glad that, I mean, your, your organization sounds really robust, like it's got several facets. Um, and so yeah, that makes me interested in, in your journey a bit more. and so I guess one of the things that our listeners face in being mental health professionals is that quite often, like they do have, uh, heavy work that they undertake, like it takes a big emotional toll on them. And a lot of mental health workers are at risk of burnout and sometimes only in this burnout state, they wonder what else can I do in mental health that will help make a meaningful impact but might not be less emotionally impactful, but just different.

[00:15:58] So it can help break up that burnout a little bit. And so I'm just wondering for you, like why did you choose to go down this prevention pathway as opposed to say, another career pathway which might've involved training, um, as a mental health professional, some people have lived experience, choose that, and some people choose a different pathway. I'm just curious what drew you to your pathway?

[00:16:18] Ally: Yeah, great question. I think it's that I was inspired by the arts. So when I was studying, I was always like the drama student. Uh, and I really enjoyed psychology. So I guess for me it was a unique, what do I do with these two things?

[00:16:37] Bronwyn: Did you ever consider like arts therapy or drama therapy or anything like that?

[00:16:42] Ally: I think I was given to me as an option. I came up with a light bulb of using... what we use... the technique wise, it's called Forum Theater. So it's, it's designed to bring a forum discussion forward, and I came across that second year uni in my drama class. And what I loved about it is it was theater to provoke change. And so when I came across forum theater, I was, that's when my light bulb came out as like, that's what I want to do. And I was a 20 something year old that pioneered out there let's change the world.

[00:17:21] What I started with was, let's find out what already exists. 'Cause I didn't want to duplicate, do the same thing everyone else is doing. So I went to volunteer. What I could find was Headspace at the time. Um, Black Dog Institute, uh, Mind Matters, which I think is Be You now, a lot of these orgs didn't really have volunteering opportunities or the lived experience story did exist as a model, right? So I was involved in that part.

[00:17:55] I think it was the Mind Matters festival at the time. They actually encouraged, there was one, uh, model that I found that they're encouraging high school students to use the arts as a vehicle in a drama festival. And what I learned was there's a bunch of health professionals that are not a registered clinical psychologist, because that pathway would've taken me down 10 years or more of study. Right?

[00:18:22] Bronwyn: I hear that. Yep.

[00:18:23] Ally: Mm. And so I kind of learned, I don't need to be a registered psychologist, but I could work with them.

[00:18:30] So I set out to say, let's trial this concept. And I worked with a youth mental health psychologist who saw the pilot event at the time. And, um, once people could see the model, the health district partnered with us to apply for funding. And the first year out we received something like $130,000 pilot... to pilot, I think we had 26 different schools and uh, the local health district had, uh, put their hand up to help run research along the pilot. And now rest is history right.

[00:19:10] Bronwyn: Yeah. You must have been so stoked, like in those early days to have gotten that, like that's a huge amount of money for like a budding, you know, idea and early stages.

[00:19:20] Ally: For a young person for sure 'cause that's where I was starting out. This is now 13 years in. Um, yes, we were stoked 'cause that was definitely, that gesture is the reason we're still here. But what we had been challenged with the most is where do we belong? Because the first year I was told there was a $1.6 billion budget cut to extracurricular activities in schools. So schools didn't really wanna pay for the program, so we kind of had to give it to them for free to do the pilot.

[00:19:55] But then we found after that none of the schools really wanted to pay for it. So, we're, we're in a bit of a weird interdisciplinary space. The Council of Arts say this is not art, it's education and the education space... i, I kind of boiled it down to, I think there's a lot of programs in schools that, like the Black Dog Institute, can run free mental health workshops in school. Uh, Headspace for schools can run free mental health, uh, workshops in schools. So I think schools kind of learned if it's mental health, we can get it for free. They didn't wanna pay for it.

[00:20:34] So then it leaves us in this mental health sector. I am pretty sure budgets haven't changed much. 'cause over the last few years, less than 1% of the mental health budget has been prevention efforts. I believe Headspace is supposed to be early intervention, yet I of see it as intervention already 'cause it's a lot more counseling rather than early counseling.

[00:20:59] Um, but they did the, the mental health sector... what language or what do they want is they want mental health outcomes, which illness based outcomes, which becomes a bit ridiculous to ask for a prevention or early intervention. So we set off on a mission to how do we measure outcomes. Uh, so I ended up finding myself doing my post-grad and finished my thesis last year, um, uh, effort, but I was really curious about... what, what evidence is there? Right? Theater intervention. So people using theater-based models for mental health and suicidality outcomes. That's, that was my focus.

[00:21:46] Bronwyn: What did you find?

[00:21:47] Ally: So there's actually robust evidence around the world using some creative arts based processes for health promotion. It's just that no one had necessarily been linking health promotion and mental health promotion together. what. I found is in this interdisciplinary space, there is a lot of evidence of arts based research, uh, showing arts outcomes. But that's not getting acknowledged from the mental health sector.

[00:22:19] Bronwyn: I guess that sounds like one of the challenges, because I did wanna ask you about what is the, what are the key challenges in doing this? Because, I guess, people might see from the outside it's like, you know, you have a clear mission, you have a clear idea, perhaps you have a clear gap to fill. Yes, there's some organizations, but there is a clear need for what you're doing. Um, you did have early funding, which was helpful. You have been going for 13 years. Um, so you know, by all accounts it seems successful, but I wanted to ask you, what some of the key challenges associated with mental health advocacy or, or in this space?

[00:22:52] Ally: Yeah, great question. I feel like one of our challenges is prevention wasn't sexy 13 years ago. And it's still, we're still combated by that. So when you think of how much of the mental health budget is not going towards prevention, it kind of blocks us out of getting that health budget.

[00:23:12] We're still navigating where do we fit? Because in an arts-based model that's both positive and a negative 'cause the positive is we can co-design real needs based on who we are partnering with. So an example is this year we partnered with Carers NT. So we designed a model, how do you avoid burnout for carers? And so that's a big agenda in the carers space. But we don't necessarily have a strong political win in regards to a large chunk of carers funding that comes to our organization. We're still a small org. so where do we play in this field?

[00:23:53] And I guess the plus side of that is we are very, very fortunate that we were riding this wave of prevention before the world was ready for it 'cause we've now found our biggest win has been picking up an impact investor. So Future Generation Global has an agenda for youth mental health. They have a vision for, you know, imagine that world where we all knew what to do in a time of need or where we need to like max out our health services.

[00:24:24] Initially, we were funded for three years of untied funding which their interest is in, how do we measure impact? And it's helping us to measure long-term impact. So we get to follow children over a three year period. They've just announced that they're extending it for another two years. So for us, this is actually a game changer. Like it allows us to allocate where that funding should go. It puts us in a position where we are being, uh, supported by experts to measure impact and also in a collective of other organizations that are also advocating for prevention.

[00:25:03] These are opportunities that are happening now, but when we first started, they were not there. So was a, the the struggle for where do we belong, who do we go to? When you're applying for funding, it becomes pretty disheartening.

[00:25:16] Bronwyn: Ah, no, absolutely. The way you're describing it sounds very frustrating. Um, which brings me to ask, like, what personal characteristics do you think you have that have enabled you to have such a long career in this space? Like, what do you think you need?

[00:25:31] I think a lot of, um, mental health professionals like, we've got a lot of training. Um, sometimes we dive into things and we don't think about what characteristics we need to have or, or kind of bring out in ourselves. So yeah. What do you think has been about you that has helped?

[00:25:48] Ally: I think in terms of the field of work that I'm in, I find myself having both the right brain and the left brain. And I think very helpful because a lot of creative artists love them to bits. We work with them a lot of the time, you know, uh, sometimes they may struggle with sending an invoice through, for example, you know, it shouldn't be a hard task, but sometimes it's a little bit of effort. You know, they may not have that fine attention to detail 'cause they're the creative innovator or storyteller, you know.

[00:26:18] But I find I'm both able to switch into my creative mode, uh, dyslexic brain, which helps, um, but also have the analytical brain, you know, the research. Being the data expert, understanding how to change my language to fit how to talk to the education sector versus the crime justice sector versus, you know, the stakeholders in the youth mental health sector. Um, I think that's just my unique characteristics.

[00:26:52] I think generally for anyone to succeed in whatever pathway they do, you need to have a strong "why". And my why coming from the background that I have, has really been my North Star. I still see gaps in the system and there's still a lot of work to do, and so that helps.

[00:27:13] But from a personal perspective, I just wanna touch on a lot of mental health workers. You come from a place of lived experience and I, I too come from a place of lived experience and we need to walk our walk and talk our talk. We know what we should do to keep emotionally regulated. Uh, it's easy for vicarious trauma to happen when other people share stories that are similar to our own stories, if there's more healing to do.

[00:27:42] So burnout could be a real issue. We almost need to kind of double down on our self-care or how we handle ourselves if we know that we are going into this space. You know, we, we technically are our worst enemies in that we know what we should do, but a matter of, you know, the firm boundaries and balancing our expectations.

[00:28:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And what advice might you have for listeners? Sometimes, mental health workers, they do wanna start programs just like the program you have pioneered. And they wanna say do an online program to help women, uh, have healthy relationships so that they end up in potentially unhealthy relationships and they wanna use their skills to build a great online program.

[00:28:30] So sometimes they're passionate, but I think sometimes they can get a bit scared as well. Whereas you've taken the leap, I guess, what advice do you have for people who are considering taking a leap?

[00:28:40] Ally: Yeah. My honest advice is start with a deep dive of finding out what already exists, right in the community sector, duplication just happens. It's us working in silos so you have to find out what is out there and, and be honest with like, you could see a gap because okay, if only people had these early intervention skills, but taking the time out to find out. Who are the other players already in this space? What's working, what's not working? Find out like who are your top three competitors, so to say, because what can you learn from what they've done?

[00:29:24] Sometimes the best things could be if there's something that already exists, well, how can I support that structure? Because have recreate like the amount of effort that goes into starting a program from scratch and lots of lessons to create programs and create content, there could be other people that have already gone down that pathway.

[00:29:44] I just find it's a really helpful start to know, well, what already exists and we're only gonna be stronger together. So as passion, passion can put that fire in our belly and sometimes just putting it out there is a great thing to get momentum started and to to show the world your point of difference. You can also be stronger by partnering with others that may already have more infrastructure or resources or the same fire in their belly to, to wanna create more change in that space.

[00:30:14] Bronwyn: No. Really valuable. Like yeah, working together we can be stronger, particularly in such an underfunded sector that we are working in. I think some people that, like you said earlier, it's like they can find that fire in their belly and then they go gung ho. And it's like, okay, there is so much more involved in setting up a business here and setting up a, a service for the community, um, in acquiring funding and finding a point of difference, finding the competitors. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a lot of thought and, and work that goes into it. So yeah, really grateful for Mind Blank that you've, you've done all this work for it.

[00:30:47] One of the final questions I have for you is what are your hopes for mental health in the next five years? And for Mind Blank as well, where do you see the sector going?

[00:30:57] Ally: Ooh, I love it. I see a trend that multi-year funding is coming into the picture. And that's really exciting 'cause it helps measure slightly longer term outcomes. 'Cause what happens when the government wants cost effective, and evidence-based practice is right now, I think the quick, they keep leaning on the quick wins. Well, what are we currently doing? Let's keep doing that. Right?

[00:31:27] Um, but cost effective doesn't necessarily cover behavioral change. So how do we actually create long-term change? So I think with long-term funding, we will have a better chance to see how these programs can help mentor people over a longer piece of lifespan, which we know has greater potential for behavior change. So I see that as a positive.

[00:31:55] in terms of our organization, we've just come from a year of growth, so we've already grown by 50%. So that was a whirlwind.

[00:32:02] Bronwyn: Wow. Yeah. Congratulations.

[00:32:05] Ally: Thank you. It's exciting to see that I think it's, you know, there's a bit of momentum with social prescribing coming in. I think arts and health advocacy is starting to pick up. Uh, I currently see too much of the arts and health advocacy is still illness based model, so waits us to get sick, and then maybe art therapy or music therapy and big loss with, you know, music therapy and art therapy, not included in NDIS.

[00:32:32] Bronwyn: Yeah, I mean, we wanna change that. I'm desperately upset about that situation. I'm really hoping that can change because I'm very unhappy about it.

[00:32:40] Ally: I hear you. But I see a space for arts, for wellness. So that's where I would like to keep dreaming is why are we waiting until people get sick and then kicking in with the tools and the knowledge, like, we can teach children about boundaries and teach them about how do we emotionally regulate well before moments. We can introduce art therapies, music therapies to people to keep them on a wellness journey, not just wait for that illness and, and perhaps we don't even need some of the therapy part, just using arts as a basis for wellbeing. I'm seeing some movements in terms of the art sector getting better at measuring impact, the wellbeing contributions that they contribute to community.

[00:33:28] Um, personally, where would I like to see Mind Blank in the next five years? Now that I've done this for a while. I do believe we're on an uphill trajectory, like the big vision. Let's get into every single school. You know, let's teach every... you know, the, the goals, uh, in the sector. Zero suicides great. You know, let's contribute to actually real data to help support some real change in community. But I don't necessarily see us getting there in five years. I think it'll take a little bit longer than that.

[00:34:04] I would like to see though more campaigning, so being a smaller business that's growing. We get feedback from everyone all the time. Love what you do, but we've never heard of you before. So we are in a phase where it is time to share stories. It's time to tell the world what we do. Uh, share tools and knowledge to skill up communities. Uh, we're already capacity building communities so that they can replicate the model within their own version, within their own communities.

[00:34:34] So I like to see more. Uh, holistic programming. That is looking at prevention seriously. So that means longer term planning. So all of our clients were challenging. What does three to five years look like? I'd like to see the wraparound skill building with the children as well as the adults, as well as the teachers, you know, who, who, uh, community led approach, uh, could be more successful than this one off program funding that sometimes these grants allow for.

[00:35:09] Personally from a lived experience perspective, I'll just quickly share, I mentioned before, um, my mom's background. Uh, she's been challenged through mental health issues throughout her life. Long story short, coming from a third world country, in her early years, she was involved in sex trafficking, which is very unfortunate. In her country, they didn't have mental health service support.

[00:35:33] Here in Australia, there's been a lot of missed opportunities, so she's still pretty much the first time we got her onto a trauma councillor was in her sixties, not early intervention, right? Um, but even now, the mental health sector, like the best thing they did was put her in an art class and it's still illness models. So she found, she was put in with people with intellectual disabilities, so down syndrome or high mental health needs are highly medicated. And she's like, I don't identify here. I don't belong. But from a family perspective, well then you have someone that's not tapped into the mental health system, that's not medicated, that's not getting supports, 'cause the system continues to fail her, unfortunately.

[00:36:15] Um, but what we found is the best thing we did was we, uh, put her in an art class, 'cause that's what she relates to. But I did find that the arts practitioner doesn't have the ALGAE framework, the signs, symptoms. How do you deescalate? Who should you refer to? 

[00:36:36] Bronwyn: I think it would be great to have. I guess, uh, art artists and maybe musicians who are leading community groups to be trauma informed, I guess be aware of the ALGAE principles, to recognize the signs and symptoms and listen nonjudgmentally, refer on when help is needed. All of that would be fantastic. And then people like your mom can attend these classes knowing that they can feel safe.

[00:36:59] So yeah, no very much support you. I'm very glad that Mind Blank exists. Thank you so much coming onto the podcast. Ally, it's been a delight to hear about your journey, about Mind Blank, about your perspectives about mental health leadership. If listeners wanna learn more about you or your organization, where can they get in touch?

[00:37:15] Ally: Yeah, absolutely. Jump on our website, www.mindblank.org.au. Uh, and I'm happy to share any further details, jump on LinkedIn. I'm always, uh, helping ear and if any of this advocacy space is something of interest? Hey, figure out already is there and help support it, you know, so I'm to have a conversation about anyone passionate about early intervention prevention or arts and health advocacy.

[00:37:42] Bronwyn: Excellent. Awesome. Thank you so much, Ally, again, and

[00:37:45] thank you listeners so much for tuning into Mental Work. If this episode resonated with you, don't forget to follow the podcast, leave a rating or review or share it with somebody else. Honestly, put it in their ears. It's the best way to get the podcast out to other people.

[00:37:57] That's a wrap. I'm Bronwyn Milkins. Have a good run and catch you next time. Bye.