How to not do 'therapy-lite' with partners and friends (with Matthew Jackson)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about an interesting topic.

[00:00:15] Have you ever found yourself being the therapist friend, somebody who your friends always go to, to seek that psychology therapist advice. Maybe it's your parents, maybe it's other family members, or do you find that yourself, you're the one doing kind of therapy-lite on your friends, family, and partners, and they're like, stop therapizing me. We're going to talk about how to introduce some boundaries. What the difference is between being a therapist friend and just a plain friend and everything else in between.

[00:00:50] Here to help us out is one of our beloved guests, it is Matthew Jackson. Hi, Matthew.

[00:00:57] Matthew: Hi, I wasn't expecting the word beloved and yet it feels accurate.

[00:01:03] Bronwyn: It totally is accurate. It felt genuine, felt genuine to say.

[00:01:07] Matthew: My inner child really loves that.

[00:01:08] Bronwyn: Yeah. Can you please remind listeners who you are? And today's question is what's something that you're loving right now?

[00:01:16] Matthew: Yeah, so, uh, my name is Matt, I am a registered general psychologist, recently made it to, uh, senior psychologist, which is really exciting too.

[00:01:26] Bronwyn: Congrats.

[00:01:27] Matthew: Thank you very much, um, and I'm like three weeks away from finding out how I went with my supervision course as well. So I'm like, come on, so close. Anyway, something really kind of interesting, or kind of cool about me, have an interest in, uh, like scary stories in the macabre, um, and I really loved growing up uh, reading a lot of Agatha Christie books.

[00:01:52] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:01:53] Matthew: Yeah, but I, I never, I've never found anything on her. And then, randomly, my partner's grandma found a book, and was like, I feel like you would like this. I really like finding out about the person behind the murder novels. It's fascinating.

[00:02:15] Bronwyn: Okay. My, my top question is, is she like a really, Like conservative timid lady, or was she like always a weirdo who just loved murder mysteries, not murder itself?

[00:02:27] Matthew: Uh, the first.

[00:02:29] Bronwyn: The first one. Wow. That's so interesting.

[00:02:31] Matthew: Right, so I'm probably, I'm probably a quarter of the way through the book and it's looking at her, you know, her past and I'm, I'm shocked. She is not the type of person I would imagine and I don't know where this book is going. I don't know where her life ends up. Because she doesn't really even have an interest in, like, murder and solving mysteries, so why did she write them then?

[00:02:57] Bronwyn: Wow, that's so interesting. I love that. It's like if she was like, you know interested in knives and kept like Murder Weekly connection you'd be like, oh that makes sense.

[00:03:08] Matthew: Right? And so my, my psych brain hears all that and goes, but wait, aren't I, aren't I meant to take information from the history and then try and link that with what's happening now? Because they're not linking...

[00:03:21] Bronwyn: Yeah!

[00:03:22] Matthew: ...to her profile?

[00:03:23] Bronwyn: Wow, that would be riveting. It sounds like it would be a cool book and then spoiler, it's like she just starts murdering people and that's how she like wrote her books

[00:03:31] Matthew: That's how she got inspired.

[00:03:32] Bronwyn: Yeah! Oh my gosh, so cool. Um, no, that's awesome. So, today, like I said, Matt, we're going to be talking about, I guess, two aspects of it.

[00:03:43] So, the first thing I wanted to ask you actually is, have you ever found yourself in the role of being that therapist friend? So like, since you became a psych, have people come to you and been like, Matt, what's my personality? Like, Freud me up. Um, give me some advice. Are you that person?

[00:04:01] Matthew: Um, yes, sorry, I'm laughing at the Freud me up.

[00:04:04] Bronwyn: I've never said that phrase in my life, but there you go.

[00:04:07] Matthew: I need like just a second to process that. Amazing. And I need it on merch immediately. Freud, Freud me up. That's great. Um, okay. Sorry. Coming back to this very moment. Yes, I think naturally as therapists, we, are put into positions where maybe, maybe our, our care and empathy and expertise are sort of elicited. Maybe even unintentionally, or if you're like my best friend, Uh, hi, if you're listening. But if you're like my best friend and usually starts a sentence with Not to use your psych brain, but

[00:04:50] Bronwyn: And then goes on to use your psych brain.

[00:04:52] Matthew: Yeah, right, it goes, not to bring work into it, but what should I do about my depression?

[00:04:58] Bronwyn: Ah, yep. Okay.

[00:05:00] Matthew: Sorry for calling you out. Yeah.

[00:05:03] Bronwyn: And is that like a natural role to you? You know, some people who are psychs, they grow up having always been the person who people tell stuff to. Is that your story or not really?

[00:05:13] Matthew: I think so. I think that, there are naturally people who, uh, probably like live in this world and have other people like gravitate towards them. You know, there's probably, there's probably like listeners listening to this right now thinking, yeah, when I was younger, randoms would just tell me something and I would think, Why did you tell me that?

[00:05:33] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:05:34] Matthew: Yeah, right and that that would happen to me as well if I think back on that like yeah, no wonder I I followed the psych path actually.

[00:05:42] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:05:43] Matthew: You know, it's probably a compliment it probably speaks to you know, how we present or or warmth or something

[00:05:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, actually, no, that resonates with me. I'm nodding quite heavily because I, I don't think I, growing up, I was a person who people came and spilled their secrets too, but I feel like sometimes I would just sit with people or just have a normal conversation and then suddenly they'd be telling me their deepest, darkest secrets and I'm like, oh cool. Okay. We're doing this. And I had no idea what, why, but that seemed to happen quite frequently. Yeah.

[00:06:20] Matthew: I think from year eight, maybe year nine, but year eight feels right I have this memory of um, this, this person in school who, I do remember being quite reserved, like hard to crack, and then I remember one time being in an art room with them, sitting next to them, and then all of a sudden they just started crying and then told me about what was going on for them.

[00:06:40] So, maybe there just are parts of like, psychologist, therapist, whoever that, uh, just kind of brings that out naturally in people, maybe?

[00:06:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. I mean, possibly, yeah, and that might've drawn us to this, this profession. Circling back to your bestie who says that they don't want to use your psych brain, but they're really using your psych brain, how do you deal with giving advice around that. So when they're like, oh, well actually, what do you do? Because they're like, so Matt, how do I help myself with depression? Like, you know, what, what goes on internally for you when that happens?

[00:07:22] Matthew: Such a good question, because do you know what, even reflecting on it, I think what happens internally is different to actually what happens externally.

[00:07:31] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:07:32] Matthew: So I think internally, I have a moment of panic, probably. Does panic feel right? Yeah, it's like a like a sinking feeling, there's a racing of heart rate, I feel really anxious, like here's that ethics thing yet again, like I think there's that type of feeling inside, and then I think okay, like what, what does the Code of Ethics or what does AHPRA want me to do in this setting?

[00:07:57] But that's actually probably different to what I do externally? I guess externally, there's two kind of examples coming up. um, I'm thinking one where I've said to somebody, Um, like, what is it that you're wanting in this moment? Which is totally a question I would also ask clients. And at the same time, with a friend, I might be much more kind of blunt and upfront about it. Like, you know, well, what are you wanting? Rather than, like, to a client, you know, probably wouldn't phrase it that way. Um, and I've definitely said to a couple of friends of mine, well, therapy's different from advice. So are we wanting therapy or advice and then when it has gone to therapy topic, I have kind of a spiel for that.

[00:08:44] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:08:45] Matthew: But yeah, to answer your question, I think internally I'm like, "Oh no, ethics, don't do this". And then on the outside, I'm like, no, actually, what do they need? Because I can do this, or if they need therapy, then I'll just give them this kind of skill.

[00:08:59] Bronwyn: So there's a, there's a choice point really about where you could go. Yeah.

[00:09:04] Matthew: I think that's so ACT and I love it. Like, totally, there is...

[00:09:08] Bronwyn: ...really cool. And I guess like if you find yourself, okay, maybe to take a back step. So what Matthew is referring to when he's talking about the code of ethics, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're thinking, okay, well, if I go into therapy, air quote, mode with this person, would that constitute a therapeutic relationship? But then what kind of responsibilities would I have? Is it ethical to do therapy on your friends and family? No, because you're in a dual relationship and that's not ethical. Um, is that kind of what you were thinking there?

[00:09:40] Matthew: Yeah, you got it. And even just thinking about the level of, like, information that we have, I was about to say have on our friends, that sounds a bit weird. sinister, doesn't it? The, the level of information that we know about friends, family, partners, the, the like, level of trust, respect, vulnerability, it might actually be quite different in a therapeutic relationship. And so then we have all the power, like we, you know, we get to use that a little bit. There's, you know, something a bit, um, maybe abusive about that too. So, just adding on to, um, that ethical quote there, yes.

[00:10:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, and it would be really hard to be objective, with our friends and family, right, like, and partners. It's like, because we know that stuff about them, it's like, and we're in a relationship with them, it's like, I couldn't imagine possibly being, uh, distant from talking with them about therapeutic subjects.

[00:10:34] Matthew: Completely. Even just like the, maybe the form of communication, like tone, even like pitch or something. I, I notice that like with my friends, I'm a lot more sarcastic, but with a client I'm, I'm probably not going to talk sarcastically and use heaps of swear words and, um, you know, be really jokey and things like that. Like, there's a different level of communication between, you know, close loved ones compared to clients.

[00:11:00] Bronwyn: Yeah. Let's talk about that. I, so I want to talk about like the differences to you between being in a relationship with family, friends, partner, compared to clients. Because I feel like it's very easy for me to not do therapy with family, friends and partners, because I feel like I am quite different in my therapy relationships, even though I'm quite authentic in both settings. I feel like with my family, friends and partner, I can be radically genuine, so I can swear and be silly. Um, I can like blather on about myself. Um, I don't have to say, I don't have to look at the clock and wait for 50 minutes. I don't need to worry if um, we have an argument that they will report me to AHPRA. Um, I don't need to be, as, as patient, as bad as that sounds with, with my friend's, family and partner. So I can, that's, that's part of being genuinely me. I feel like I am, I'm more patient with my clients, um, than I am in my other relationships.

[00:12:11] When people come to me and they might be drawing on topics that are psychologically related, I feel like I can be quite direct rather than using like a socratic questioning or something like that. How do you feel you are different between friends, family, partner, and in therapy?

[00:12:33] Matthew: I totally agree with everything you just said.

[00:12:36] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:12:37] Matthew: Maybe if I can give an example, this is kind of how I see it, right, because I love that you said socratic questioning. That is like actually part of my example.

[00:12:44] So like with a client, right, if they approach me with, you know, I'm dating this person, and I don't know if they like me, and you know, they don't respond to this message, but then they show me this attention. You know, with clients, I might explore, well, you know, what's attention to you? And, when they don't respond, what does that mean for you? What does it say about you? And those types of things, Um, elicit Socratic questioning, et cetera. Um, there's like evidence based behind it. Um, you know, we're, we're using models, right? We're not just coming out with an idea, we're basing our questioning, or whatever it might be, on models.

[00:13:24] Where, with friends, I'm not doing any of that. It's a lot less objective, actually, and is typically like, well, why did you message him back then? Like, is that like irreverence? It's that honesty that relationships require in regards to friendship, family, um, and, you know, romantic relationships. It's not, um, it's not as objective. I don't sit there thinking, okay, now, hang on, How do I elicit if this person thinks that this relationship is effective and valuable for them? how can I get that for my friend here?

[00:14:01] No, I'm not thinking that, I'm thinking, What the hell is my friend doing? Oh my god, what are you doing? No, I cannot. We've got to be honest. What are you doing? This guy's so bad for you. Cut him out. not gonna say that to a client. Yeah.

[00:14:16] Bronwyn: ...and I want to see their perspective on whether this relationship is working for them. But yeah, like I think this is a great example because with a friend I'd be like, he's leading you on, like, he's a piece of shit, um, like, you deserve better. You're better than that. You deserve better.

[00:14:31] Matthew: Exactly, and usually with friends as well, I'd be like, profile, show me his profile.

[00:14:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Matthew: And we're looking at photos, and you know, if you, you know, If the guy's treating my friend, you know, really crappy, I'm like, ugh, yuck. You know, big supportive friend. But, you know, in a therapy session, I'm not like, well, could you please show me your Tinder profile of this person? I would love to analyse that. No! What?

[00:14:55] Bronwyn: No, it's yeah. So yeah, it's quite different. That was a great example. Um, but maybe let's talk about like some lighter therapeutic methods and by that I mean, I reckon that being a therapist has influenced like how I interact interpersonally just a little bit.

[00:15:16] So like, I wasn't crap at interpersonal skills before I became a psych, but, you know, I've done some training and counseling, as have you, and it was good to learn about open ended questions, helping people identify pros and cons, active listening, empathizing statements, reframing.

[00:15:37] I, I feel like I bring that into my personal relationships now, and then my mum, she's really good at picking up on it, she'll be like, don't therapise me. Um, but I'm like, I'm just, just doing interpersonal skills, like I'm just doing basics here.

[00:15:50] Matthew: I really love it. Good on you, Mum.

[00:15:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, she, she's the one who actually hates it the most, and I'm like, I'm not doing it, I'm just trying to listen to you. Yeah.

[00:16:00] Matthew: Mum, please listen to this episode. No, actually, I really like that you've got me thinking. As you were speaking, I was reflecting as well that I guess something that I bring in from my own training and experience as a therapist is like, just being considerate.

[00:16:15] With friends, you know, you might kind of go, Wait, what? And react. You might interrupt them. I don't know. But in a session, I'm not going to do that. I'm actually going to allow the person to have this space, but I can also bring that actually into my friendships too and be like, Hey, wait, I want to react to that, just let them have this space, let them go. Um, I guess like just even being like sensitive and empathic, you know, if somebody is your friend or a loved one, then hopefully, hopefully we're feeling empathy for them, right? So, like, we can bring that into relationships as well.

[00:16:51] So I guess, like, there is some common ground between, um, like, therapy talk or doing therapy and being supportive, considerate, having relationships, I guess. There's some commonality.

[00:17:05] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:06] Let's talk about boundaries. Is that all right?

[00:17:08] Matthew: Yes, good topic.

[00:17:10] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. So let me give you a few scenarios and let's flesh them out. How does that sound?

[00:17:14] Matthew: I love this. Okay.

[00:17:16] Bronwyn: Okay. Let's say, a friend has come to you and they have shared some personal things that they're going through. And the conversation kinds of ends up with them saying, Oh, I'm so glad I have you, Matt. I don't need a therapist. I have you.

[00:17:33] Matthew: What a comment. Already I'm like, ugh.

[00:17:36] Bronwyn: How, okay. Okay. So we're, we're feeling a bit ick.

[00:17:40] Matthew: Yeah, interesting. Okay.

[00:17:43] Bronwyn: So what do we do?

[00:17:46] Matthew: You know what? Knowing me, I would lean into that. Like, if that's my friend. Then I feel like I can be honest with them and say something like, Well, I'm not your therapist, I'm your friend.

[00:17:55] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:57] Matthew: And then probably then go into, do you think it's time to find a therapist?

[00:18:03] Bronwyn: So you would be quite direct.

[00:18:04] Matthew: Yeah, I think I would, because like, If you're my friend, if I'm your friend, you know, our friendship, It like, kind of requires honesty? Um, And I think as therapists, that's something that we have to have with our friends, family members, partner, we need to have that honesty, the ability to say, "Oh, no, that's a therapy topic", or whatever it might be. We need to be able to feel comfortable and confident to say that, and I think that that takes honesty to be able to do that.

[00:18:36] So, yeah, I think I would lean into that and say something along the lines of like, "Well, I'm not your therapist. And maybe it's time to explore therapy for you".

[00:18:46] Bronwyn: I would take a similar approach. I would also be like, Ooh, like flattered. I'm probably not the best person to help you out with this. I reckon this could be a therapy topic. What do you think?

[00:19:00] Matthew: Actually, I like that.

[00:19:02] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:19:03] Matthew: I really like that. Oh, I'm flattered.

[00:19:07] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:19:08] Matthew: I actually really like that initial response.

[00:19:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay.

[00:19:12] Matthew: Yeah, I, I, I feel quite, uh, like, I feel like that was quite gentle, actually, compared to, um, my response, and I'm not whipping myself, I'm just, um, compared to my response of like, Well, am I a therapist?

[00:19:27] Like, there's a little bit more reverence to it, but, um, it might kind of get, you know, my friend offside a little bit. So I really like that gentleness of, well, I'm flattered by that. And...

[00:19:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. So, because they may think that you're the perfect person, but they might not understand that you lack the objectivity, um, and that the therapeutic relationship is quite different and it's a space to fully focus on themselves, um, without having to worry about whether they're going to offend the therapist.

[00:19:57] What about in the context of a relationship. I'll give you a scenario. Let's say that your partner is on the verge of experiencing depression. So you've noticed that they've stopped doing some things which they really enjoy, they've been working a lot, they're being very stressed, they're not eating right, they're not sleeping well. Um, and yeah, you notice some signs about them. What do we do?

[00:20:23] Matthew: You know what? Knowing me, I think I would take this from a place of curiosity and gentleness with my partner. And I think I would bring up in a very warm, loving conversation that I've observed these things, I've noticed these things, maybe their signs or symptoms, and you know, allow them to have some space to talk about their responses to that, and then really kind of move into my objective or aim of suggesting maybe it's time to talk to your GP about it. think that would be like, a very broken record with this. Of like, I'm not getting involved in that. It's time to talk to a GP.

[00:21:07] Uh, and so there would still be, I guess like in summary, there would still be that, I'm concerned, I'm your partner, you know, we don't have to talk about this from like a, a medical perspective of signs, symptoms, blah blah. You know, I have a, I have a duty as, you know, a person to like make sure that you're okay. Um, you know, how can I support you?

[00:21:29] But I guess I, I guess, you know, our duty as like professionals also do come into it a little bit and maybe that's something, maybe that's something too effective to tap into. It's sort of noticing that, okay, there's a member of the community who's struggling. Yes, this member of the community is my partner. So I'm not going to get involved in like, well, do you think this is related to your mum?

[00:21:56] Bronwyn: Someone's got mummy issues.

[00:21:59] Matthew: Let's talk about this from a schema perspective. No, um, I might not do that. I'm being cheeky now, but, um, it would still be, you know, from a perspective of like, I care about you and... what can we do about this? What are your thoughts, actually?

[00:22:15] Bronwyn: I think you've described it perfectly because I was going to, um, so I'm a accredited mental health first aid instructor and you have just described the mental health first aid action plan perfectly.

[00:22:28] Matthew: No way!

[00:22:29] Bronwyn: ...break it down for you. So, um, um, so the first it's called ALGEE like they can't think of any other better acronym. It's like it's ALGEE.

[00:22:40] So A is, um, Ask and assess for any risk. So you take an approach to the person and you say, look, here's what I've noticed. You don't list 10 things. You're like, "Hey, I've noticed you've been pretty down lately. What's going on?" And then the L is listen non judgmentally. So there'll be like, Work's been really stressful. You don't jump in and you're like, you know, it hasn't been that stressful. Or like, kids in Ethiopia have it worse. You, you know, you being nonjudgmental and you validate and you, you listen.

[00:23:09] Um, then G is give support and information. So it's not advice, but it's say like, "Hey, this is really hard. Um, you know, depression, a lot of folks can get better. So this isn't like a, a lifelong thing. We can, we can help you out. Um, and then the first. E is encourage appropriate professional support. So that's what you were doing when you were saying like, GP might be great to speak to about this.

[00:23:32] And then the final E is encourage other supports. So this is just like, well, what do I do in the meantime? Hey, like, you know, maybe go back to footy practice, like just give it a go. Um, you know, you really enjoy going to church, let's, you know, let's make sure you go on some days. So you try and encourage them to connect with, um, activities that they enjoy, which, you know, like you've done a. Um a good sense of meaning and purpose and that's pretty much what you described. So well done a plus!

[00:24:00] Matthew: Thank you! I also love ALGEE that's fantastic.

[00:24:03] Bronwyn: Yeah! So like that's that's how I think of it like when I think of like, you know How am I gonna give someone support that's outside my psychology role? I think of it like mental health first aid because it's a community intervention. It's for people in the community.

[00:24:16] Yeah, I'm just giving them information that I would give anybody, which is like, you know, depression, anxiety, there's really common conditions, but they don't have to be forever. There's always a door that's going to be open. Help is available. Um, you can feel better. Let's go get you to a GP first and see what they, what they say. See if there's any medical stuff going on and try and get back into other stuff in the meantime and, and wait until the appointment. Does that sit right with you?

[00:24:43] Matthew: Yeah, it totally does. I really like that system for it too. And it totally sits right in the sense of no matter what the relation this person is to you, this is still a member of the community. This is a human being.

[00:24:57] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Matthew: Even if it's your mum, partner, whoever, we have to act in a way that is respectful. It doesn't bring harm to the profession, of course, um, but you know, it's respectful and it's for the person themselves. So I really like that formatting because it, it doesn't then instruct you like, well, you're not a professional in that moment. So it's, it's not up to you, it's not on you, you know, forget about it.

[00:25:22] Bronwyn: No, yeah.

[00:25:23] Matthew: It's okay to, um, it's okay to bring those, like, ideas from the profession in without being the professional. I quite like that.

[00:25:33] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. It's a very, it's a very focused approach. It's really like being like, you know, I'm here, I'm here to support you in like the capacity of listening to you right now, but like, I can't get in and do the therapy with you. Like, let's try and get someone else on, on your team so that they can help out.

[00:25:49] Matthew: Ah, I love that.

[00:25:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, so it's a really gentle like compassionate approach and I think most importantly it doesn't ignore distress. So like with mental health first aid, we really encourage folks like, you know If you see something you can take your time and be like, is this normal? Is this not normal? Is this a change of the person but don't ignore it cuz like stuff might not spontaneously get better and it can get worse.

[00:26:11] Matthew: Yeah, completely. And I think also, like, even if you were to apply that with a friend and say something like. You know, I've noticed the last couple of times we've seen each other that this has changed, or the last couple of times we've spoken, you've mentioned this. Just slightly concerned as your friend, you know? You know, just slightly concerned as your friend, um, we're okay. Or, um, I've even said to a friend of mine before, like, um, you don't have to tell me any information if you're already talking about it with somebody, but, um, I've noticed this, are you okay with this? Like even that type of basic helpful type of communication, I guess.

[00:26:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that sounds like it's been really helpful.

[00:26:54] So maybe there are some folks listening who are kind of like unsure whether they are too involved with their family, friend's, partner. And so what do you think are some signs that you might need to establish some boundaries between providing emotional support to your loved ones versus like being okay in yourself and making sure that your self care is, is all right.

[00:27:23] Matthew: I would definitely say one of those signs is like your own internal and external responses to the person. Perhaps observing the urge to withdraw just generally, but also from the person themselves. If you find that they're like pushing for too much support, that could be a sign.

[00:27:44] Um, I think even if you're able to notice, different ways that you communicate or provide support. Like if you notice yourself being very supportive, kind of therapeutically, to, you know, friend A but not friend B. Like being able to kind of observe that difference as well. I think even, um, noticing your own kind of signs of burnout. Yeah. So. I notice for me, if I'm providing too much support to friends, that might be kind of leaning away from just friendship and more into professional area. I find that like, I sleep more, I don't want to engage with those friends, I take longer to respond to them.

[00:28:29] I guess even just noticing, like, the general attitude, like, towards the career as well. So, if I flip it the other way, you know, if I'm providing too much support or kind of leading into, like, professional help with friends, how is that then affecting me as a therapist within the therapy space? Hmm, could I be even, you know, making my therapeutic alliance, the therapeutic relationship more of a friendship?

[00:28:58] Bronwyn: That's a really good point.

[00:29:00] Matthew: Yeah, like it was, I don't know, it was just something that's been in my brain the last couple of weeks is like, okay, this therapeutic relationship, the alliance itself, how much of this relationship, would I regard as professional and how much of this is becoming a bit more, yeah, friend, friendlier, right? Yeah.

[00:29:18] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's something that I've thought about a lot, actually, because I have a very friendly style in therapy, and my supervisor has noticed that as well. So, I don't like over self disclose. In fact, I rarely use self disclosure actually, but I, because I think I've got a bit of a bogan upbringing, I can just speak real casue with clients. And so it's quite friendly. And I'll be like, yeah, so you're a bit povo growing up, how was that? And stuff like that. And so I'll speak to clients like that.

[00:29:48] Um, and so like, I've had to talk about with my supervisor that sometimes clients may interpret our relationship to be more friend like than it actually is, whereas I'm not trying to, it's just a natural personality characteristic. But yeah, it's been, um, sometimes it is like. For me, I know the difference very well, but for the clients, I may not. So I need to think about carefully about how I show up in sessions.

[00:30:12] Matthew: Right? And so like, just, um, going kind of deeper there, right? Like, if we are showing up in our personal relationships in this way, and how we're showing up in our professional relationships with clients, are we, are we kind of switching them? You know, is it like one week, is it one way, but, the next week is of the other. Like, how, how are the two impacting or how are the two communicating with each other?

[00:30:41] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, really interesting stuff. I really enjoyed your signs that like, you know, maybe some consideration may be needed. Um, for me, the ones that resonated were wanting to withdraw from friends. Like if I feel like, uh, I'm giving too much and they're not giving enough in return. I know I can feel like withdrawing.

[00:31:00] Something else that I notice is like, if I walk away from conversations being like, I didn't share anything about myself, and so then I know, um, was that kind of therapy light? Maybe it was, cause you know, in friendships, I want it to be a give and take, and I want it to be like, Oh yeah, I had something similar, you know, like, and share stuff about me. Um, so that's a sign that I might need to make sure that I am inserting myself in that friendship a little bit more.

[00:31:27] Matthew: I like that actually. Friendship... Relationships, I guess, are a two way street.

[00:31:32] Bronwyn: Yes, they are. Yeah.

[00:31:33] Matthew: Right? Whereas, like, in the therapy space, due to, you know, ethical disclosures, etc, etc, etc,

[00:31:39] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:40] Matthew: There isn't that tendency for us to just go and talk about our best friend and, you know, how they've just had a kid, and

[00:31:48] Bronwyn: Totally.

[00:31:49] Matthew: You know, so it is a little bit more one sided. It's all about the client.

[00:31:51] Bronwyn: It is. Yeah. And so like, yeah, outside of therapy, I do want those two way relationships.

[00:31:58] Matthew: Right? That's a really great thing for us to be aware of is, yeah, like you said, when I leave this person, when I leave this interaction, was that two way? Did I reveal something about myself? How do I feel about that person after that interaction? Yeah.

[00:32:14] Bronwyn: Hmm. Okay. I feel like we're kind of coming towards the end, but I do want to ask you, like, how do you feel that you are going with managing this, like, right now, like, do you feel like you've kind of struck the balance well and that you're not the therapist friend and you're not therapy-liteing people, but you feel quite comfy in your relationships? You feel like you're getting your needs met? How's that going?

[00:32:37] Matthew: Oh, what a good question. Okay. I'm going to say overall, I feel very comfortable in my relationships and I don't provide therapy lite to those relationships. And, there is this one relationship where I have had to put in a boundary in. And now, even as I'm sitting here speaking, I'm like, hmm, actually, how is that boundary going?

[00:33:05] Bronwyn: Ah, this is interesting.

[00:33:08] Matthew: So in reflection, I think this boundary is going really well. If I think about the last, couple of times I've communicated with this person... I don't think I've done therapy at all, actually. I think I've been...

[00:33:19] Bronwyn: ...a friend?

[00:33:20] Matthew: A friend. I performed my friendship role, and at the same time, because this person is very effective at eliciting care, I think I have to be on top of it. For like, the friendship itself, but also for my own burnout, I have to be really on top of it.

[00:33:38] Bronwyn: I'm really glad that you've been able to reflect on that and you're like, okay I need to keep on top of this because I think it also highlights for listeners, it's like, take a moment reflect on your relationships reflect on like are you getting your needs met in those relationships? Or are you doing a bit of therapy light or are you the therapy friend who they come to for advice? It's worth our reflecting on this

[00:34:00] Matthew: Yeah. Even like thinking about it or having dedicated time to go through each person in your life, and thinking about, okay, well this is a topic that they bring out. So, how would I respond, me, and how would I respond as the professional, which so, then which way am I responding in reality, and if it's responding in the professional way like I did with this particular relationship, okay so now how do I, how do I change that now?

[00:34:29] Bronwyn: Yes. Oh, yes. Changing boundaries. Yeah, when you've created expectations, it's really hard. I mean, I talk about that with clients. I'm sure you do too. It's hard to change the rules once they've been set, but, um, it's just correcting people being that broken record, changing their expectations. You know, I know we talked about that last time, but is it all right if we just like have a good chat this time?

[00:34:50] Matthew: Yeah, have you been like, overting it? I've definitely done it in friendships, where I've said to people, so I think I kind of gave you a little bit, um, of, like, therapy me

[00:35:01] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Matthew: And I'm pull back and I'm gonna put on like the Matt hat.

[00:35:05] Bronwyn: I love this. Thanks.

[00:35:07] Matthew: yeah, I literally have like a moment in time where I've said this to a friend of mine, um, and did say, like, I'm going to put on the Matt hat, so be aware, like whatever Matt says is going to change from last time.

[00:35:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, wow, I love that. That's like so, that's so great. Yes, I, I'm gonna steal that.

[00:35:27] Matthew: Please do.

[00:35:29] Bronwyn: Okay. I just wanted to share as well because maybe listeners have experienced this as well It's like like as you were talking I was also reflecting on my own relationships and I was like, you know, how would I, what's my scorecard and I feel like i'm pretty good with friends, family and partner. I don't feel like I have any troubles there.

[00:35:46] What I have had troubles with recently is going to see professionals and then they find out that I'm a psych and then I have a therapy session with them. Um, so this has literally happened Um for the last massage I got From the last tattoo session I had and from the last hairdressing session, I had all of them turned into therapy sessions. And like, afterwards I was like, Oh, I don't mind. I don't mind. It's fine. But now I'm reflecting on it and I'm like, I do mind. I just want to get my massage. I just want to get my hair cut .

[00:36:18] Matthew: Oh, I didn't think about the masseuse that I go to. You're right. Actually, you're right, because like when I think of relationships , I think of like, I think of people close to me. Like if you have, you know, a regular masseuse, hairdresser, whatever, that's a relationship, actually.

[00:36:35] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah. And it's, um, it makes me, I think I find that more difficult. If you've got any advice for me, like I'm very happy to hear it because my fear is like, if I say like, Oh, can we talk about something else? The massagist is going to get like, they're going to like break my bones or something, like the hairdresser is going to cut my hair crooked. So I get like, I feel like, oh, okay, shit. I guess I'm in here now.

[00:37:03] Matthew: Really love that. Um, yeah, if anybody has advice, I'd love that too.

[00:37:07] Bronwyn: Okay. You need advice too. Right into us. mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com. Anybody got any good, uh, good hints and tips that we can use with professionals who want to use us for therapy?

[00:37:21] Matthew: ...and, and the, the question of, so what do I do in that? Oh no, I didn't think, oh, here we go.

[00:37:28] Bronwyn: Oh my God. I might just start lying, but like lying is so antithetical to who I am. So like, I should just say I work at Bunnings or something, but then I know what would happen is to start talking to me about Bunnings and they'd be like, "Oh, I work at Bunnings too". Which one do you work at? And then I'd get caught out like knowing me that would absolutely happen.

[00:37:45] Matthew: ...not Bunnings, but I've said to somebody like, um, oh, I'm, I'm a social worker. I was like, it's just gonna be so much easier if I don't say psych. And so I said, social worker. And then this person went on about something that is so very social work related and I was like, oh, oh no.

[00:38:06] Bronwyn: Yeah. Then you have to keep up the facade and you're like, Oh shit.

[00:38:10] Matthew: Yeah. Uh, oh no.

[00:38:13] Bronwyn: Okay, well that's an outstanding question for us that listeners can pipe in with.

[00:38:17] Matthew: Give us whatever ideas you have because at this point now we need your help.

[00:38:22] Bronwyn: Like I said listeners DM me, I'm on Insta, Facebook, LinkedIn, send me an email mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com, help us hopeless people here, um, we just want to get massages, psychologists for therapy-free massages.

[00:38:38] Matthew: Yes. Oh, I like this. This is, oh, this could actually be a really good union.

[00:38:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh my God. We've got a clear key message.

[00:38:50] Matthew: Yes, boundaries and massages for everyone.

[00:38:53] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh my god, well, Matthew, what are the key takeaway messages that you hope listeners will take from our conversation today?

[00:39:02] Matthew: I think some key messages are, one, to reflect on your current relationships with your loved ones and to think about what professional communication or therapy and what personal communication or advice would look like for you and that relationship.

[00:39:22] I also think being really gentle on yourself, that if you do find yourself thinking, oh should I provide some psycho ed on this, that like, it's okay to think that, like it's, it's okay to have a moment of like, ooh, therapy happened on, it's, like it doesn't make you a bad therapist or bad person, we do it, I've literally admitted to it, it's okay to do that, um, and to, to be gentle, to be sensitive towards yourself.

[00:39:50] I would also totally encourage you to, to take that to supervision. That form of boundary work is, oh, so awesome, and would be, as somebody who's done it with my own supervisor, um, I would love to encourage you to take that to supervision.

[00:40:07] And I guess my last takeaway, is just to, how do I want to put this? I guess to ask your loved one, friend, family member, partner, like, what are you needing for me in this conversation? Is it Therapy Hat? Is it Matt Hat? Or whatever your name is, like, what, what hat are you needing from me, um, maybe as a way to kind of start that boundary discussion. Yeah, what are your thoughts on takeaways?

[00:40:35] Bronwyn: I love how you brought up being gentle with yourself. It's, it's such a beautiful thing, um, because we're all still learning. Um, so don't beat yourself up. It's like, this is something that we've all had to navigate and still navigating. So really notice how you feel in your relationships. Do you feel like it's, you know, Two to one side, or do you feel like you're giving yourself a lot? Recognize the impact on yourself and discuss it with somebody else who you trust and might be a supervisor. It might be someone else, and yeah, work out with them a plan that you could take to gradually change, change this, change this dynamic so that you can protect your own wellbeing and get your needs met in your relationships.

[00:41:11] So Matt, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:41:18] Matthew: You can find me on my drag Instagram, um, which is at Matilda Mercury Queen. I, um, now and then make posts when I'm, when I'm, um, not too tired from the psychology world.

[00:41:34] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:41:35] Matthew: So you can definitely find me there, otherwise I'm, I'm kind of in thoughts about Creating a different Instagram that's kind of like, very therapist focused, kind of like self compassion, yeah, very like sensitive to our own emotions.

[00:41:54] Bronwyn: ... If you start that, let us know.

[00:41:56] Matthew: I definitely will. I'll, whenever I come back, I'll, I'll give you an update on it.

[00:42:00] Please

[00:42:01] Bronwyn: do. Great. I'll put those links in the show notes. Um, do check out Matt's drag insta, he always looks so fabulous. I really, I love your costumes. I love your makeup. They just look so great.

[00:42:12] Matthew: Would love to say that it's other people who do it, but you know, everything just falls off of this brain structure. So I'm very gifted.

[00:42:20] Bronwyn: I would 100 percent agree with that. And I'm glad that you can say that. Um, it's important to be proud of your own work. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. 100%. Um, you've got a talent, you've got to own it.

[00:42:34] Okay, thank you so much, Matt, for coming back on the podcast and talking to us about this really important topic. Thank you for your insights.

[00:42:41] And thank you listeners for listening. Um, I hope you really enjoyed today's episode. If you've got a mate or a friend, um, or anybody who you reckon could benefit from this episode, do chuck it in their ears, tell them to download it. Send them a link. It's the best way to get the word out there about the podcast. And that's a wrap. Thanks so much for listening. Have a good one and catch you next time.