How do I know if private practice is for me? (with Jordan Turner)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology . I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins and today we are talking about how do I know if private practice is for me and if I'm ready?

This comes from a listener question. Thank you, Nikki. And today to help us unpack it is our returning guest, Jordan Turner. Hi Jordan.

[00:00:27] Jordan: Hi Bron, how are you?

[00:00:28] Bronwyn: And well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on, and Jordan, could you please remind listeners who you are and I'll ask you an icebreaker question after that.

[00:00:38] Jordan: All right, um, I am an educational and developmental registrar and a psychologist that works in private practice primarily with neurodivergent clients.

[00:00:49] Bronwyn: Excellent. And I told Jordan off air that because she's already been on and I've asked her what her non psychology passion is, that I would ask her a different question. And I'm going to go with, I'll do the, which famous person would you like to meet?

[00:01:05] Jordan: Oh man, I'm really bad at celebrities, but it would probably be like one of those like badass women that are like frequently like quoted as empowering like um, Ruth Bader Ginsburg

[00:01:18] Bronwyn: Oh, totally.

[00:01:19] Jordan: Yeah, or Hillary Clinton or something like that.

[00:01:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, like Frida Kahlo.

Yeah, like, Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:26] Jordan: I'm wearing Frida Kahlo, like, dress right now. I don't know if you

[00:01:28] Bronwyn: Oh, you are too! Oh my god, that would be the obvious one.

[00:01:32] Jordan: Oh yeah, I, I was like, how bad am I a fan of Frida Kahlo? I'm like,

[00:01:37] Bronwyn: well, you have a better answer than me. My immediate answer was like, yeah, I'd like to meet the Spice Girls as a collective.

[00:01:43] Jordan: Oh, I mean, that's, that's like an every 90s kid dream.

[00:01:48] Bronwyn: Absolutely, oh my gosh. Yeah, private concert with the Spice Girls, that'd be incredible.

Anyway, Well, listeners, let's give you an overview of what's to come. We're going to talk with Jordan about her experience of just starting her own private practice and what's that like for her. And then for me, I've been in my private practice for three years now and I've done an episode right at the start of this podcast about starting out in private practice, but I think it'd be really good to have our different perspectives.

Someone who's just starting out and then me who's been in it for three years and things we wish that we had known, things we're looking forward to, challenges, when you know it's ready for you, when to start it, just some common myths and misconceptions. Sound good, Jordan?

[00:02:35] Jordan: Yeah, awesome.

[00:02:37] Bronwyn: Excellent. Okay. So, To start off with, for listeners who might be considering starting their own private practice, could you share a little bit about your journey into private practice and what inspired you to start your own?

[00:02:50] Jordan: So when I was doing my master's, um, one of my first placements was in private practice and I always kind of thought that was like, that was the dream, like going into your own private practice. It was like, you'd made it as a psychologist if you had.

So I did, um, placement at one and I was like, this is awesome. I'm really enjoying like the autonomy of it. And just, you know, I really like the idea of having my own key to the office so I can let myself in. Um, And from there I did some like government placement and I did a placement in a school and I just really came back to the private practice. I was like, this is like really good. I'm really enjoying this.

So then after that, I, um, applied for private practice, like a group private practice. Um, it was multidisciplinary and, um, I worked there for three years and sadly had to hand in my resignation because I live very far away. Um, and I am contracting at another private practice now. I have been for about six months and now I'm slowly, or very soon, maybe, fingers crossed, starting my own private practice. I've got like all the stuff ready, but I haven't like announced it officially yet. So

[00:04:04] Bronwyn: And when you think about starting your own private practice, what feelings show up for you?

[00:04:10] Jordan: I'm a little nervous because I'm like I feel like I'm fairly confident since I've worked in private practice with the private practice aspect of it, but I'm definitely nervous about being the the last point of call where like I'm the one who has to be accountable for like what happens because if you're in group private practice, usually you can be like, here's the practice manager, talk to them. Um, and I'm always. Gonna be the bottom line. So like if a client's unhappy, I have to deal with that. Which I'm a little bit nervous about.

[00:04:43] Bronwyn: Totally. And how come you wanted to go into your own private practice as opposed to going into another contracting or employee situation?

[00:04:52] Jordan: I think it came down to I just really like having my own autonomy. And like, as I was in private practice, I was like, I love how they're doing this, but I would love it if I could do it this way. And I don't have to really answer to anyone. Um, because when you're in group private practice, there's a lot of pressure sometimes, not thankfully, not for me, but for others to do a certain number of billables a day.

When you're calling your own shots, you can set the billables. You can decide whether or not they're going to pay for something, how much they're going to pay, how you're going to collect information, how you do the intake process, all the policies and procedures. Those are all things that you can decide for yourself.

So, I really like the idea of being my own boss and setting my own kind of rules and working just me and the client and not really having to deal with any other stuff.

[00:05:47] Bronwyn: Yeah, so it sounds like it's both an increase in autonomy, you get to do things the way that you would like to do them, and you get to take care of patients the way that you would like to without any external pressure from a group practice.

[00:06:01] Jordan: Yeah, that's true. And I think everyone kind of, um, also likes the feeling of getting a bigger paycheck. 'cause you always have to give a cut to somebody if you're in practice.

[00:06:10] Bronwyn: True. So Jordan, as you're about to embark on this journey, What questions or concerns do you have about making the transition? I heard you mention risk before. Are there any other concerns or questions you have?

[00:06:26] Jordan: I think, um, keeping up the momentum because your, um, your income will be variable. It's similar in contracting, but um, in contracting usually you're given clients. Whereas if you're the solo private practice, you're the one who makes sure you have clients. And if people drop off. You'll be like in trouble if you're not getting paid, right? So that's a big one for me.

I think being the bottom line, um, I think I will like in a case where risk is a problem I would be the one who's ultimately responsible and that's the case in a lot of like psychology, but Usually in a group practice or in like a, you know, a government or like, I don't know what, company or whatever, um, there's somebody else who can hold space for you.

Whereas like, unless you've got like a friend on speed dial, you can't really talk to anyone if it's freaky and you're like, oh my gosh, what's going on?

[00:07:29] Bronwyn: Yeah. That nature of private practice, like, yeah, yeah, can be a bit concerning. I'm wondering as well, Jordan, this just occurred to me, but sometimes people have like money barriers, like they're thinking, how can I charge this fee? What fee should I charge? I don't know if I can charge my services. Do any of these sorts of thoughts show up for you?

[00:07:53] Jordan: Yeah, I, I, I, I'm obsessing over that right now

[00:07:56] Bronwyn: Oh, okay, cool, cool.

[00:07:58] Jordan: because like, um, the place I was thinking of setting up my private practice is quite affluent. So, a lot of people charge quite a bit there. but the practice I worked at for three years. Was quite low cost relative to other practices and the new practice is kind of in an affluent area like the one that I'm contracting at is in an affluent area as well.

So I'm like, I don't know if I can charge that much. I feel like. I think a lot of psychologists feel like I'm not worthy. Like, I can't do that. What if people don't want to come to me? What if there's more, like, pressure on me to perform because they're paying more? Um, and if I happen to have clients that are, like, return clients, which don't poach clients, um, because... I mean, they will follow you if they like you, but don't steal them because it's a faux pas. But, um, if they were paying less before, how could I ask them to pay, you know, this huge jump in fees if I end up charging more? That's something I think about a lot.

[00:09:00] Bronwyn: Yeah, and how are you reconciling those questions? Are they just going around and around in your head or are you getting external help or?

[00:09:08] Jordan: I brought it up in group supervision because I'm in a lovely group supervision with a lot of people who are kind of entering private practice themselves. And they were saying that it's a little bit of a cognitive distortion almost, because like, ultimately, when they increase fees, nobody really says anything.

[00:09:25] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:09:26] Jordan: And I'm like, Okay, well, I know that's, that's probably the case. But as a highly anxious person, I'm still kind of like, Oh my gosh, no. So I'm kind of like, gonna hold my breath and be like, this is the fee. Here you go. Take it or leave it.

[00:09:40] Bronwyn: Yeah, I do feel like it's a bit of exposure. Like, for me, I've raised my fee, I think, four times since coming into private practice because my fee was so low. So then I had to keep on raising it just to keep up. Otherwise, I would literally have been the cheapest psychologist in WA, um, aside from those who are bulk billing.

And nobody has ever questioned a fee rise or been like, Oh, that's a bit pricey or that's a bit steep. No one. Ever. So it, it has been a bit of exposure. So now I still feel a little bit of anxiety, but I'm, it's nowhere near the anxiety that I first felt.

[00:10:16] Jordan: Yeah, yeah, I guess, um, it is kind of a tough question to, to, it's essentially like putting a value to how much you believe you're worth.

And like, I, I listened to your first podcast about the private practice stuff because I was thinking about it at the time. And thank you for that. And everyone go listen to that if you haven't already.

Um, That I was like, okay. Yeah. No, I am worth it. I've done all this training I know what I'm talking about people who appreciate what I have to give will pay the money But still you you always have that little imposter syndrome, which is just like part of being a psychologist I think

[00:10:54] Bronwyn: I think it is. Yeah. I, I would say that 99 percent of us would have money stories that we've grown up with around our worth. And then we learn stuff about money, which is like, Oh, but maybe I should be giving more to people in need. And we all want to help people who have mental health concerns and families and it's, it's hard.

[00:11:13] Jordan: Totally especially if you have the kind of clients that are really Like with the financial crisis and they're kind of like, oh my gosh, I know it's a crisis now, the, the, I guess the strain.

[00:11:24] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:26] Jordan: they're like that contributes to their mental health issues and then like to say that, oh, by the way, you have to pay 250 for me to help you or whatever. I mean, I feel really bad about that, but also I need to feed my kid.

[00:11:40] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's that as well. It's like our needs are important as well, and like our financial security is important so we can keep on offering services. Otherwise, we're going to be under financial strain. And then how good will we be at helping other people?

[00:11:54] Jordan: Yeah, put your oxygen mask on before helping

[00:11:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, that one. Yeah, but it's, it's totally a struggle. And yeah, I remember having the same anxieties and ruminations. And like, I still do, but I guess I've got provisions in place. Like, I've got this thing in the back of my mind... I haven't had to use it yet, but I do say to myself that if a client was to lose their job and they were a reliable client, I'm sure I could work out a reduced fee for an agreed amount of sessions. I haven't had to use it yet, but I kind of feel good knowing that, yeah, I would have the capacity to do that.

Um, But everybody has their own comfort levels and so like another thing that I know people do is that they waive the cancellation fee the first time but when I calculated how much that would cost me if I did that I was like no I cannot do that. So what I do is I like do a reduced cancellation fee of like 75 as opposed to the full fee so that I'm still getting money but it's not the full fee if I want to waive it and then I say I'll charge the full fee next time. So yeah everybody has their different comfort levels.

[00:12:56] Jordan: And that's, I guess that's part of, like, you don't know that stuff until you get into it. Like, and that's why I felt like contracting was a really gradual kind of approach to it. Because then I still got a flavor of the business but not diving into the deep end.

[00:13:12] Bronwyn: Maybe we can ask our first juicy question, which is something that I see a lot on social media, but this is an opinion question of should psychologists start solo practice in the first 12 months after registering in your opinion?

[00:13:29] Jordan: in my opinion,

[00:13:31] Bronwyn: Yes. Okay.

[00:13:33] Jordan: I think you'd be pretty bold to do that. I've heard of people doing that. I couldn't do that. So for me, it wasn't, it wasn't viable. And remembering the massive growth I had in my very first year out of. my first year out of uni, I guess. I feel like that would have just been like too much mental load for me and I probably would have imploded and burnt out. But, but like, I'm not, I'm not everyone so I can only speak to my experience.

[00:14:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's very diplomatic of you.

[00:14:06] Jordan: I know, I, I also feel like I've got it lined up, this is how I feel.

[00:14:12] Bronwyn: um, I've thought a lot about this question and I've gone back and forth on it and I've ended up with, in my opinion, no for the vast majority of people. And it's for similar reasons to you, Jordan, in that I think you experienced a lot of growth in the first year, but I think you also don't realize how much growth You can do.

So like with private practice, you can set up your intake form. So you have very strict criteria about who comes in the door, but sometimes you don't know exactly who you're getting in the door until they're in the seat. and that's not to say that after the first session, you can be like, look, I'm not the psychologist for you, but then you have to get supervision around how to tell the client that and how to go through that process.

I think there's a lot of curveballs that can come your way in private practice in the first year. And if you're not aware of things, like, a lot of us get trained in cognitive behavioral therapy. And I know for myself, I didn't get taught about transference and countertransference. And in private practice, that's really, really important. It's like, am I recreating a relationship that the client has outside of therapy, in therapy with his client, um, and how can I not contribute to that and what's happening here? Like what's my stuff and what's their stuff?

And I think it's really hard to know all that stuff in the first year. Um, I would say if anybody does want to start in the first 12 months, you will have already had a background in business management and like maybe you're already a counsellor beforehand or an assessor beforehand and you're getting weekly supervision. That would be like my things. What about you?

[00:15:49] Jordan: yeah, bare minimum, like weekly supervision with somebody who's like, well versed in this because God, the amount of like, like, because on top of the fact that you're now kind of like an authority, which is a whole thing that you have to kind of compute and be like, people actually care what you have to say now. And you're telling people things. Um, you're also grappling with the fact that what if the client is like, Like suicidal, what if, what if the client is really unhappy with the service? What if, um, you haven't like, I'm doing a lot of what ifs, which I know is like, in theory, a bad thing for like cognitive behavioral therapy anyway. But, um, like you just gotta be thinking about all the stuff that you couldn't possibly anticipate until you were in it. So

[00:16:36] Bronwyn: No, it's so true.

[00:16:37] Jordan: yeah, you, you really need to be like held in that space, which is why I think group practice is kind of the way to go. If you want to start out in private practice, but I will say this one caveat. Make sure that the group practice you go into is well, like supportive of new psychs because you don't want to go in there and have like eight clients a day. That's not sustainable.

[00:17:01] Bronwyn: That's bad.

[00:17:02] Jordan: Yeah, very bad.

[00:17:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, so true. And then you won't get that skill building in that practice if they're not supportive.

[00:17:10] Jordan: Yeah, you really want somebody who's like, um, like their mission statement is like we're helping early career psychs grow.

[00:17:18] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. And on the risk, it's like, I have such a comprehensive risk assessment. I also have policies for complaints, um, and feedback. And yeah, like those are things that I didn't even think of before I started thinking more about private practice and all the policies that I had to come up with.

And you're the one coming up with them. So I think my policies and procedures manual, I'm calling it a manual, but it's a word doc, is like, it's like 20 pages. And that's like me being like, What would happen if I worked out there was a conflict of interest? How do I get ethical advice if I need it on the spot? Like I've got word docs which are like all my resources and who would I call? Um, and that take, that took time to set up. and yeah, there's just a lot that maybe you don't realize that you need in private practice.

[00:18:08] Jordan: Yeah, I mean, this is all just like the, the practice of psychology. There's also things like, how do you do Medicare?

[00:18:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, oh my

[00:18:17] Jordan: NDIS, how do you do NDIS? Um, if, if you've, um, you know, how do you, and if you haven't run a business, how do you put aside money for tax? Do you put aside money for tax?

[00:18:28] Bronwyn: It's so funny. I'm like, oh no, I'm feeling anxious. And it's like, why am I feeling anxious? Like, I've literally been doing this for three years, but like, I'm feeling anxious talking about all the things and I'm like, oh my god, Medicare. And it's like, yeah, I do that. Like, I don't need to stress.

[00:18:43] Jordan: Yeah, yeah, I was doing my best just before this and I was like, uh, this is gonna be, it's simple now because I'm a contractor, I know it's gonna be a lot harder when I, so I'm gonna have to invest in some software, I think.

[00:18:54] Bronwyn: Yes, totally. Yeah, absolutely. And that's like another consideration, like all your infrastructure, like the software that you use. I've got a document just for that as well, which is like the accounting software that I use and like, who is my accountant and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:19:09] Jordan: Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I love that because I remember you saying that you're very like, procedure, process based.

[00:19:15] Bronwyn: Yep. Yeah,

[00:19:17] Jordan: That's, a strength in private practice though, you kind of want to be that person.

[00:19:21] Bronwyn: Yep. But this leads us to our next question, because for me, like Strength of mine is that I, I'm really good at procedures and processes, but I didn't realize the other emotional stuff into private practice. I felt like I was private practice ready, procedural wise, um, but I wasn't ready like for the isolation and emotional, um, burden that it would take.

And so maybe my question to you, Jordan, is like, how do you know what, maybe, how did you know that private practice solo, private practice, like you are ready for it.

[00:19:54] Jordan: I think once I got really comfortable in my toolbox with clients that I felt kind of like, okay, this is the areas I work in. I'm really confident in what I do. When clients come to me, there's less of this, oh shit, I don't know how to, how to manage this. Like, I don't know, um, Like I'm, I still get those cause you, you're, there's always room to grow, but I, I definitely like in my client base, which is, uh, neurodivergent folks, young and old, and also transgender diverse folks as well. I'm relatively comfortable in that space and know what I'm doing so that I have more mental energy for the stuff that I'm not familiar with. So I felt confident in like the psych bit. Now I'm. I'm kind of learning the, the business bit, and I think that's when I decided that probably I am ready to do solo private practice.

[00:20:57] Bronwyn: anything in your mind where you were like, maybe I'm not ready for this? Like, was there any doubt or do you feel like

[00:21:06] Jordan: No, I think I, I think there's always like an element of doubt. I think, um, by nature I am a very ambivalent person. Just like in all aspects of my life. I'm always like, oh, what if I did this? Oh no, maybe I should do this. So there's always like that element of doubt and, oh, am I going into this too soon?

But I think that, Uh, I have a good support system. Like I, I 1000 percent will have like a supervisor to consult with. I don't think I'm going to go out and I just like, I know like a lot of psychs that I can consult with if I ever felt stuck and stuff like that. So, even though I am scared, I think there's always like an element of fear in going into like a new situation.

I'm mindful of that because I work in, I work with people's anxiety all the time. I'm like, okay, so I'm going to reduce my mental load in this aspect so I can focus more on this part. And then I'm going to give myself plenty of time to have a little bit of a freak out when this happens. And I'll try and anticipate things and front load myself and all that.

So yeah, I definitely feel afraid in the way that you do when you're starting a new job and also afraid of, like, I still have my, my toe in the consulting space. So, or, It's a contracting space, so I can still like fall back on that if it flops, but I'm gradually like introducing clients, so it's not like I'm going, quit my job. All right, let's let's start private practice by myself. I'm going.

[00:22:31] Bronwyn: Well that's a really good point actually. I've seen some other people do that. They gradually reduce their work in public health and increase their private practice days. Do you reckon that that's a good approach?

[00:22:41] Jordan: I think you have to be really careful that you don't overload yourself. So like, If you are doing private practice, so I was doing like three days and then I was like, Oh, you know what? I'm going to take on an extra day now. And then I was like, Oh my God, now I'm doing four days of like, I know my limit is probably about 15 clients a week. No, yeah, no, no more than that. Cause at that stage I start getting a little bit like, Oh, I'm tired.

If you're going to do that, you definitely need to be properly reducing, not trying to take on twice as much load, you know, like, which is really easy to do because they're keeping in mind that when you're closing off in a space, especially if you're kind of in a private practice already, it's a gradual process. You're not just like, bye. See you later. I'm going to reduce down. I've been, so I'm resigning at this other practice, but I also have had a very, like, protracted, like, saying goodbye to my clients, because they were long term clients. And this is how we, because they're also like, you know, they. Find therapy hard and it's hard to find somebody who's a good fit and all that. Finding that kind of closure in itself really hard, which is also why it's really good to listen to Bron's like closing therapy podcast. I'm just going to drop all the,

[00:23:59] Bronwyn: god, thanks Jordan.

[00:24:01] Jordan: can you tell I'm a fan of the podcast?

[00:24:04] Bronwyn: No, um, but no, I completely like, yeah, having done that episode, I completely empathize with those feelings of coming to a close with clients. It brought up a lot of feelings to me as I described in the podcast. And yeah, it can be really difficult.

[00:24:18] Jordan: Yeah, it's like super hard. It's like breaking up with 15 people at

[00:24:22] Bronwyn: it is. It is exactly.

[00:24:27] Jordan: Therapy really is just dating. Like, you find the right fit and then you have to dump them.

[00:24:31] Bronwyn: I know! It's, it's terrible, I know, and it's like, my poor little clients, they've already got so much bad things happening in their life and now I'm gonna dump them?

[00:24:39] Jordan: I know, I mean, that's, we're being facetious here. Of course, we love our clients and we hate to think of them as like, we're dumping them because we'd love to be with them forever.

[00:24:47] Bronwyn: It's facetious. Yeah.

[00:24:48] Jordan: Yeah,

[00:24:50] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:51] Jordan: client hears this is like, oh my god.

[00:24:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. I've got two questions because I'm ADHD. I have to like, I'm going to put them in front so that I don't forget them.

Um, the first one is I'm aware that you're a newish mum, and I wondered for any listeners, who might also be newish parents, like how that's factoring into your decision.

And then the second question I have is, what do you see as the essentials of needing to have before you go out to private practice? But I'm just saying that so I remember it. Okay, so with mum, newish mum, how old's your bub?

[00:25:29] Jordan: Oh my god She and I just had our birthday on the weekend. So

she just turned two.

[00:25:35] Bronwyn: Do you have the same birthday?

[00:25:37] Jordan: Yeah, that was a fun birthday for me

[00:25:39] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Happy birthday.

[00:25:42] Jordan: Thank you, I'm I'm a mom with a baby and we have the same birthday. Yeah,

[00:25:46] Bronwyn: That is crazy. Wow. I wonder if she's going to hate that when you, when she's a teenager.

[00:25:50] Jordan: I already hate it and I'm gonna I'm not a grown ass adult. Like,

[00:25:55] Bronwyn: We're not waiting for her to hate it.

[00:25:56] Jordan: yeah, I was ambitious. Uh, side note. I'll talk about it later. But the, uh, the answer to your question is she's two years old. Um, she's very like her mom and dad, neurodivergent, very quirky. it's hard because You have no downtime.

So when I went into private practice, or when I started thinking about going into solo private practice, I was wanting to do all the procedures and policies and all that, and I ended up needing to outsource and actually pay someone to do it instead of doing it myself. Although I was perfectly capable of doing that, I just, I, I never had the time to do it.

and in that way, um, it's hard. I think. Part of it is also, like, being neurodivergent and needing, having a busy brain. I needed a project that was outside of, like, the mundane ness of being a new mom and, like, so I was like, you know what? I'll just start a private practice. It'll be easy. Haha, jokes on everyone. It's not. Don't do that. If you don't want to burn out.

in a way, that's something to factor in as well. Like, you have to, like, make space for new, new motherhood, and also, like, your work, but one of those is going to suffer if you devote too much all your energy to it. So I think taking it slow is probably the best approach.

[00:27:22] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:27:23] Jordan: Um, the other thing I was thinking about is factoring that in is, um, if I'm in solo private practice, I have more flexibility so I can arrange my schedule around her. I also, get paid more, which, like, in theory, because I also, like, the other thing they don't tell you is how many things you have to pay for in private practice. Um, so I have more. So if I get paid more, I can work less. So I have more time. To negotiate being a new mom.

So those are all things that played into my decision to kind of move into solo private practice, even because I think I could have done, um, group private practice for a lot longer if I wanted to, but I think it was just the financials, the flexibility really kind of pushed my decision forward. Is that a, does that answer or?

[00:28:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, that's a great answer. Thanks for your insights there. Um, God, I would have, would, did it suck being pre like giving birth on your birthday?

[00:28:21] Jordan: It did. I had a scheduled C section because anxiety issues. And I was like, can we just do it? Like. The next day or the day before, I really don't want to have my stomach cut open on my birthday. and they were like, nope. And I was like, okay, cool.

[00:28:37] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh. Cool. Um, next question is, what do you see as the essentials? Like you have to have these before you go out and start your solo private practice.

[00:28:54] Jordan: I feel like I'm, this is boring, but I'm gonna say you definitely need a ABN. That's non negotiable. You need that. Um, it's really helpful to have an accountant that specializes in psychology. because they, they really guide you. I have a really great one. He's actually based in Adelaide. If you want, I can find out his details. I'm sure he'd love,

[00:29:17] Bronwyn: I'm sure he would love more clients, but yeah, um, for any listeners, you can find, uh, there's, this is often a question on Facebook groups or psychologists. So just post in there and be like, or search in the groups, um, for psychologists, friendly accountants, and you'll probably get a few suggestions.

[00:29:32] Jordan: yeah, that's, that's actually how I found this guy.

[00:29:35] Bronwyn: Yeah,

[00:29:36] Jordan: worked out, um, and he gave me like tons of spreadsheets and just like really talked me through the,

[00:29:41] Bronwyn: yeah, that's what you

want.

[00:29:43] Jordan: yeah, he was great. Um, I think it's also important to have a supervisor.

[00:29:47] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:29:48] Jordan: I'm just saying this off the top of my head, but, um, you need insurance, obviously. You need, you need the, um, private indemnity, I

[00:29:57] Bronwyn: Yeah. And public liability.

[00:29:59] Jordan: Yeah, it's helpful to have a room to go work out of, but you can work in telehealth if you want.

[00:30:05] Bronwyn: You can.

[00:30:05] Jordan: Did I say supervisor? Because you definitely need one.

[00:30:08] Bronwyn: But I'm, but I'm happy to have that twice on the list.

[00:30:10] Jordan: Yes, you definitely need a supervisor, non negotiable, um, and you're, it's really, I've heard from a lot of people, it's really good to have your policies and procedures set out before you see the clients, because then you can just refer back. Otherwise, it's, a bit of a mess, I imagine.

[00:30:26] Bronwyn: Yeah, I wouldn't recommend working out your procedures on the fly because you need to tell a client straight up what your cancellation policy is and set that expectation from the start. So you at least need your cancellation policy, and also your calendar hours. Don't set your calendar hours on the fly because otherwise it would be like, I can work at seven o'clock at night. And you're like, I hate working at seven o'clock. Um, so do have like strict hours and keep to those hours.

[00:30:52] Jordan: Yeah, totally. And, and that's, that's something that I kind of, you know, learned how I like to work on along the way being in a group private practice. I feel like I'm pushing that first, but like, because I was like, oh, this cancellation policy doesn't really work for me

[00:31:07] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:31:08] Jordan: In my own practice. I would do it this way.

[00:31:11] Bronwyn: No, but that's, I, I'm pro group private practice starting out with.

[00:31:16] Jordan: Yeah, as long as it's a good one and they don't exploit you. So make sure you find a good one.

[00:31:20] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Anything else on your, must have list?

[00:31:25] Jordan: Uh, if software, Halaxy, is a good one.

[00:31:29] Bronwyn: Yeah, it is.

[00:31:30] Jordan: I don't know, the other one, PowerDiary,

[00:31:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, PowerDiary. The difference is that Halaxy is free to sign up and you pay extras for SMS and you can get a custom mobile number for 50 bucks a month. And then PowerDiary is a subscription based one. But there's a lot of codes going around where you can get like PowerDiary for six months cheap and stuff like that.

So you can try it out. Some people say PowerDiary is easier to use, easier interface. I haven't used both now. honestly, I think both are pretty similar. I'd use whatever is cheapest.

[00:31:59] Jordan: Yeah, yeah, I was on Halaxy before, it was called like, HealthKit or something?

[00:32:05] Bronwyn: Yeah,

[00:32:05] Jordan: And then, yeah, Halaxy is just a no brainer for me, because I was already comfortable with it.

[00:32:10] Bronwyn: Totally. Yeah. Um, okay. Is it all right if I add my must haves?

[00:32:14] Jordan: Yes! I want to hear them! Ha ha ha ha

[00:32:18] Bronwyn: You need to have a plan for how you're going to get clients. Um, so this is something that I've observed because I So, I've had people come into my room to sublease and what they've done is they've secured the room. Great job. But then they haven't had a plan for how to get clients. And so then they're like, I don't have any clients, but they're paying me a monthly room rate. And I'm like, Oh, don't do that. Like have a plan.

So, I definitely, I think, have a plan for getting clients, um, and that can be as simple as I'm going to post a psychology today profile and I'm going to go send some letters to GPs and my recommendation would be show up to GP practices and talk to GPs. They like putting a face to a name and I know a lot of people are nervous, but you're going to have to put your big person pants on and go do it, because it's worth it, honestly. I was so full just by visiting one GP practice.

[00:33:14] Jordan: dang, that's good!

[00:33:16] Bronwyn: And it's like, they're like, okay, I'll take a shot on you. And then they say that you're doing good work and then they recommend you to your, their colleagues, and then you can't stop them referring to you.

[00:33:23] Jordan: That's awesome. And just as a side note, like, see pediatricians if you can, if you're in child psychology.

[00:33:30] Bronwyn: Totally. Oh my gosh, they would love you. Yep,

[00:33:32] Jordan: Or a speechy or OT. They're also very helpful, like if you're doing autism or ADHD.

[00:33:39] Bronwyn: local area coordinators as well.

[00:33:41] Jordan: Yeah, that's true.

[00:33:42] Bronwyn: Yeah, um, the other thing is you're going to need a bit of money buffer to start your business because there are lots of upfront costs. Um, so you might need like A new work phone or a new sim and you might need to get internet. You might need to pay upfront for rent. Um, you might need to change your insurance. You might need to buy a new laptop or a webcam.

So there's lots of expenses that you don't realize that you're going to have to do before you start. So you just have, like for me, I think setting up because I leased my own room, it cost me 10, 000 to furnish. My room. Um, yeah, yeah. And that's not me being like, I'm only the finest gold couch, please. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I wasn't. I was, I was like reasonable.

Um, but yeah, there's just a lot of costs, um, in starting your practice that you don't realize. Um, and you don't want to skimp on this stuff either. It's like, you don't want to, Like we're obligated to have insurance. You don't want to skimp on your insurance or you don't want to skimp on like making sure your registrations are good and stuff like that.

[00:34:51] Jordan: Hmm, that's true. Yeah, those are like, you have to do those. You can't not do those.

[00:34:55] Bronwyn: Exactly. And then the only other must have I would say is, I'm going to say it again because it's so important, but you must have supervision. Um, and you must be able to talk to that supervisor about how you're feeling about your clients, um, how your mental health is, and to be honest with yourself as well if you're going into burnout.

[00:35:13] Jordan: Oh, totally. Yeah. Um, I think that's really critical because if you're solo you're all alone and you really need somebody who's able to help you debrief if you're having There are some clients you you come out and you're just like jesus. I am so so broken from this session.

[00:35:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:31] Jordan: just need someone to talk to and that's what a supervisor is there for.

[00:35:35] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh, and so you have to budget for that as well. So like, you know, if if your supervisor charges 200, which like, I guess for supervisors is probably about 220. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's how much I pay for mine. How much do you pay for yours?

[00:35:51] Jordan: Um Less than that, but also, um, she's kind of like, it's a deal that I have.

[00:35:57] Bronwyn: Oh, okay, a deal. Yeah, okay. Um, yeah, I find my supervisors, it's like 220, 250 kind of

thing. Um,

[00:36:04] Jordan: I mean, that's not good. I was like, oh, maybe I should be a supervisor.

[00:36:08] Bronwyn: it's good if you're a supervisor but like, you know, if you're getting weekly supervision, that's like what, like a thousand dollars a month. Um, so yeah, you need to, um, you do if you, Get GST on that. You can claim that back. So you need to register for GST as well.

[00:36:23] Jordan: Yeah. I've been told it's easier to do that up front than to do it later after you make the cutoff.

[00:36:28] Bronwyn: do it up front because then you can claim for every other GST on the things you paid for.

[00:36:33] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's what I did even before I started earning 75, 000 plus.

[00:36:40] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know if I've met that threshold. But we'll see.

[00:36:44] Bronwyn: Yeah, and it's pretty easy to sign up with. I mean like, by easy I mean you have to navigate a clunky website for like an hour.

[00:36:52] Jordan: Yeah, and I think you could just actually tick a box and say like, I'm also registering for GST while you do your ABN. So

[00:36:59] Bronwyn: yeah, I think so as well. Yeah,

[00:37:01] Jordan: Like, I bet you did it way earlier than I did, but

[00:37:05] Bronwyn: remember it being clunky, but I might have like confused that with another memory and maybe I'm just confusing them.

[00:37:10] Jordan: there are definitely like clunky things that you have to do. Like, um, I think probably the Medicare one is a bit clunky,

[00:37:18] Bronwyn: Medicare, I was going to say like signing up for Proda was a real pain in the arse. Um, so yeah, yeah.

But yeah, I, so supervision, but also somebody who is versed in private practice. So maybe a supervisor who's only worked exclusively in public health, like, might not be your best bet. Or you can get like a mentor for separate stuff. What do you think?

[00:37:42] Jordan: that's true. I think that, um, My supervisor is really funny. She says that she has like a collection, like a pool of supervisors. So if they're experts in certain areas, she's like, so you want to have one for like OCD and one for ADHD.

[00:37:54] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:37:55] Jordan: but so she's, she recommends that. But I think that it's worth, um, because she's at in depth. She's my primary supervisor and she's lovely, by the way, guys. So, uh, Claire Panetta, if you're, um, interested,

[00:38:07] Bronwyn: We love you, Claire.

[00:38:08] Jordan: We love you. Um, and. Yeah, it's having somebody who's well versed in private practice is going to be really, really important. Yeah, because they, there's things that you just don't, it's, it's not even just about the client presentations. It's about, you know, All of it.

[00:38:27] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's, it's, it's a lot.

[00:38:30] Jordan: It is a lot. And I think that maybe, um, because I was kind of just thrown, like I've just dived into private practice. I don't realize it's a lot, but like, it is like when I talk to my, my friends who are like in schools or in government, they're like, this is so crazy. I don't have to worry about any of this. I just kind of go in, do my client work. And then if there's a problem, the principal handles it. And I'm like, Oh my God, I wish it was that easy. But I'm always like, fielding calls and being like, Oh my gosh, my cycle, you know, something's going on. There's a crisis. So boundaries is also really important.

[00:39:02] Bronwyn: Oh, that's so true. Cause I was gonna say like, I think initially it was a lot for me, but now that I'm three years in, I would say that like, it's not too much. Like, I don't feel like I'm drowning under admin. I feel like my processes and procedures are pretty well in place. I've got heaps of templates for whatever I want to do. I've got really good boundaries. Like, I'm not a crisis service and all my clients know that. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:27] Jordan: like, um, that was, that was one of my steepest learning curves, first thing, and remembering that my, my first kind of entry into general private practice. What general practice was in private practice, being able to say to a client, hey, because some will email you a lot, especially when they're in crisis mode. And the crisis will usually be kind of resolved by the time you get to the email.

So it's, it's worth saying, like. Look, I don't answer my emails. I don't check them unless it's in business hours. If there's something imminent, it's worth coming into the practice or giving us a call to see me sooner. Or if they write you an email saying something like, thank you for bringing this to my attention. We'll discuss it in session just real quick. Um, otherwise you can get really admin just trying to read these emails of clients in crisis all the time.

[00:40:21] Bronwyn: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, that's a really good point and I would even recommend having a supervision session to work out how you want to respond to emails and what you're going to tell your clients because yeah, my policy is like, you can send me emails, um, but I will save them and I might reply to be like, thanks for sending this. We'll talk about it next session and I'll save it and we'll discuss it next session.

Um, some psychologists, they have a policy of don't send me emails. Okay. So it's really like what you feel comfortable with and you know, that requires a bit of experimentation to find out what your, um, what your boundaries are. Um, but for crisis, like, I know most psychologists they have an auto reply. That's like, if you're in crisis, you call triple zero, you call Lifeline or present to your hospital emergency department, or you can call the local crisis team here. That sort of thing.

[00:41:06] Jordan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So my auto reply, or even though I think my, my signature has all the numbers on it, I usually know if my clients are riskier clients anyway. So I've, I have like a form with all my, like, numbers that I send to them. This is who you can contact. As a pro tip, if you're with a neurodivergent client who hates phone calls, there is like a, an SMS option. So you can like, you can text people instead of calling them because I think a lot of people are put off by calling people.

[00:41:35] Bronwyn: Um, yeah, I feel like that's a millennial thing as well. like, yeah. I I feel like I overlap with like the neurodivergence and millennial thing. I hate calling people. So I mostly contact clients if I have to by email or I'll send them a quick text if it's admin. Um, so, and they know that text is just for admin stuff.

[00:41:56] Jordan: Awesome. That's a great, way of doing it. So the other thing about boundaries is if you know yourself that you're not, Great, because we're all people pleasers, right? That's why we're in the profession. If you know you're not great at holding boundaries, it's really worth considering having a admin person, just like,

[00:42:13] Bronwyn: That's a great

idea.

[00:42:15] Jordan: yeah, uh, what are they called? Um,

[00:42:17] Bronwyn: Uh, VA, virtual assistant yeah.

[00:42:20] Jordan: who can field those calls. Like, and get a mean one who's like, no, sorry, she's not available. I

mean, don't get a mean one.

[00:42:27] Bronwyn: Oh, no. But like, yeah, one who has like firm boundaries.

[00:42:30] Jordan: Yeah, one who's going to lay down the law because they're the, you, you love admin because the, a good admin person is like the key to the practice. So you, um, you want somebody who's able to set that boundary for you.

[00:42:45] Bronwyn: 100%. Yes. Um, yeah, absolutely. And then factor that into your expenses as well.

[00:42:52] Jordan: That's right. So that you, you're paying for the bouncer at the door, I

[00:42:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. That's such a good way of putting it, but it's so true. They can really just provide a lot of reassurance and help you, um, with those boundaries and yeah, provide a good front to your practice.

[00:43:07] Jordan: Yeah, I have a friend of mine who, um, is also, um, like moving into solo private practice and she's like, the one thing that's kind of holding me back is I just do not want to deal with all the admins. So we're talking about VAs together and stuff.

[00:43:20] Bronwyn: Oh, that's a great, great idea. Yeah, I need to do an episode on admin, um, and VAs because I've tried out a VA and I didn't like it. And, but all my admin is so streamlined now that like it works well for me and I need to just like do like how my admin is so streamlined, um, episode, but

[00:43:35] Jordan: Yeah, you should. Um, and also like, um, Yeah, automating processes is

[00:43:41] Bronwyn: Oh, I love automation. Yeah. Yep.

[00:43:43] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So the why not the practice I'm contracting at now I'm learning heaps about how she's automated everything. I was like, this is so beautiful. Like it's so easy.

[00:43:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, exactly. Uh, but, but a good VA can also help with that as well. So if they know like Halaxy and like a few tips and tricks of different software, they should be able to automate things for you as well, like your intake form. So

[00:44:07] Jordan: Yeah, totally. Yeah, so a good VA can do that An admin person if you're going like whole ham and having a full time person

But also, like, if you're solo private practice, if you can minimize the admin that you need to get done, then that's good.

[00:44:22] Bronwyn: Oh, totally. Absolutely.

So Jordan. We've got maybe two more questions. Okay. What are some of the goals that you have for your private practice? Like some people, the goal is just, okay, I just want to get into private practice. But some people are like, this is the first step in my journey to open a practice with 50 practitioners and then save the world.

[00:44:46] Jordan: Oh my god, wouldn't that be amazing?

[00:44:48] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:44:49] Jordan: um, I guess, like, my, my short term goal, like, was, or my medium slash long term goal was just to get into private practice. That was like, oh my gosh, I've made it once I've done that. And of course, being one of those hyper ambitious, like, people, I'm like, okay, so now what can I do? Maybe I could consider opening a practice, um, with, like, a niche. Like, I think my big dreams are, like, something like, um, Like a not for profit for late diagnosis, um, autism ADHD women, because no one, yeah, I mean, that was like, that's like a huge, like, pipe dream kind of thing.

[00:45:25] Bronwyn: Wow. That'd be so cool though.

[00:45:27] Jordan: Yeah, maybe somebody hit me up if they know how to do that and I'll, I'll be the ideas man, woman, person.

[00:45:35] Bronwyn: Wow, no, that would be so cool.

[00:45:37] Jordan: yeah, because none of them really can afford it if their kids are all getting diagnosed.

[00:45:42] Bronwyn: Oh, absolutely.

[00:45:43] Jordan: don't want to spend their, like, it's a privilege to get diagnosed at this moment.

[00:45:48] Bronwyn: No, I hear that so often. The parents are like, okay, I'll sort out my three kids first and then we'll see about me.

[00:45:53] Jordan: yeah, maybe me.

[00:45:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, maybe.

[00:45:56] Jordan: Yeah, that's part of the, the mommy martyrdom, I guess, and also an issue in private practice. So be that. Be aware of that if you're a new mom like me.

[00:46:05] Bronwyn: Yep.

Oh,

[00:46:07] Jordan: The, other thing, like, probably less, um, or along the same lines, but less so, is like, uh, a practice that niches in, like, neurodivergent women in particular, um, and, and AFAB and gender diverse people, because I just love that space, like, so much, like, I love that client base. I love working with those people. It just makes, it gives me, like, so much life and energy to do that.

[00:46:32] Bronwyn: so good to hear. I'm so glad that you have, yeah, a population that gives you that, that burning passion.

[00:46:38] Jordan: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Give me a microphone, I'll like rant about it. Trust me.

[00:46:43] Bronwyn: We can do that later. what advice would you offer to psychologists who are on the fence about whether to pursue solo private practice?

[00:46:51] Jordan: I think it's worth considering what, uh, what you value about your work. And I think this is just good advice for work in general. Like, so do you value autonomy? Do you like being independent? Do you like, um, making your own rules? Incidentally, I think this is why it's really worth considering if you're a neurodivergent person, because a lot of, because a lot of people do.

Um, but, um, if you want support, you want to be held, and you want, um, kind of, like a culture to live in, then maybe private practice isn't a good fit for you. Like solo private practice, but group maybe. Um, so consider what your values are, and whether or not solo private practice fits into that.

[00:47:35] Bronwyn: That's great advice. Yeah. Um, I hear you on the neurodivergent thing. It's like, I'm working in a group private practice right now for a placement and I'm doing fine. But like, as a neurodivergent person, private practice is such a good fit because of the flexibility, you get to do your own rules, you get to say what it is. And you also get to create something like I feel like a lot of us neurodivergent folk just have a burning desire to create things. And we're just like, Oh, like, how can this be better? How can this be improved? Like, Yeah, and it's, And it's like, you've got a ceiling if you're in a private practice, at least that's how I felt. So yeah,

[00:48:12] Jordan: I think that's, that's probably a good point is that like, when I was in placement in schools and government versus like private practice, I was like, I'm so frustrated by how limited I am in my ability to help these people. Whereas in private practice, you like the ceiling, the sky's the limit. You can be like, you know, I'll be your case manager. I'll be blah, blah, blah. I don't recommend that, but you can, you can, help them in lots of different ways.

[00:48:36] Bronwyn: yeah, absolutely. Okay. Any final parting words to listeners on this topic, jordan?

[00:48:42] Jordan: Um, I can't think of anything, but I just hope that it was helpful. Um, I love talking about it. So,

[00:48:49] Bronwyn: Yeah.

No, I hope it was helpful too. I think it was really helpful hearing you talk and I wish you the very best with your private practice. I hope it goes really well.

[00:48:57] Jordan: Thank you. Me too.

[00:48:59] Bronwyn: Do you have a website yet?

[00:49:01] Jordan: I do, um, it's JordanTurnerPsych.com.

[00:49:05] Bronwyn: Excellent. And do you want people to refer to you?

[00:49:09] Jordan: You are welcome to refer to me, um, if you feel like somebody is going to be a really good fit.

[00:49:15] Bronwyn: Okay, excellent. Oh, good boundaries. Yes. Um, yeah. Yeah. No, cause you know, being an ed dev psych, it's like, you guys are such experts in this assessment area. So it's like, you know, I

[00:49:26] Jordan: Oh yeah. Worth saying that I'm not, I'm not doing assessment just yet. So if you're looking for assessment, but I definitely can point out if you need assessment, that's

[00:49:34] Bronwyn: Okay. Awesome. Cool. I'll pop that link in the show notes and thanks so much, Jordan, for coming back on and for your insights.

Listeners, thank you for listening. And thank you for sharing the podcast. If you haven't shared it, make sure you share it with a colleague, mate, friend, person down the street, anyone who will listen. I'm happy for it to be in anyone's ears really.

Um, and if you haven't left us a five star rating and review on iTunes or Spotify, have a go. I'd love to hear the review. It does really help get it in other people's ears.

That's a wrap. Have a good one and catch you next time.