LISTENER STORY: Moving from Australia to the UK as a Psychologist (with Georgina Lennard)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins.

[00:00:12] Now, imagine having to move across continents and in different roles in psychology while still trying to establish your career. Sounds pretty difficult, but that's what we'll be diving in today in our listener story. We'll be exploring the exciting and sometimes daunting journey of working in different healthcare systems, dealing with relocations and embracing diverse experiences.

[00:00:36] I really love listener stories. As you'll know, I always really like doing them because we get to hear kind of an on the ground experiences of what it's like to gain registration and what the first steps are in somebody's career. So here to join us today is our guest, Georgina Lennard. Hi, Georgina.

[00:00:52] Georgina: Hi Bronwyn, thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:54] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much for coming on to share your story. So Georgina, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:01:05] Georgina: Sure, so I'm Georgina Lennard. I'm a clinical psychologist working in Child and Adolescent Mental Health, and my passion, I've got a couple of passions I suppose at the moment. I really enjoy sewing. I was recently given a sewing machine for my birthday. Yeah, I feel like it's a very nice, mindful hobby to have on the side of a relatively stressful job.

[00:01:24] Um, and since moving overseas I've also been really enjoying doing lots of travel. So they're my main passions at the moment.

[00:01:31] Bronwyn: great. Um, yeah, I'm literally sitting next to my sewing machine and my overlocker, so that's in the same office here. So yes, also really into sewing. Where do you like to travel to?

[00:01:42] Georgina: Uh, to be honest, anywhere and everywhere. I think, um, so we've been, yeah, we've, um, I've been living in the UK with my husband since the start of last year. We've been trying to make the most of lots of opportunities to travel both within the UK, um, to explore kind of our surroundings here, but equally to visit, um, different countries in Europe that we might not have been to before.

[00:02:01] So, um, I think our favourite places we've been to so far have been Italy and Norway, and we've got my sister visiting next week with her partner as well, and we're heading to Portugal, so that would be really nice.

[00:02:11] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. Wow. I hope you have an amazing time.

[00:02:15] Georgina: Yeah, it's a great excuse to get away.

[00:02:18] Bronwyn: Totally. Is there like something to do in Portugal? Like is there, and I'm going to sound so ignorant because I don't know anything about Portugal, but do you do skiing in Portugal or do you go see museums in Portugal? What's the thing to do in Portugal?

[00:02:30] Georgina: That's a great question. I've heard there's a very good cafe culture. So I think lots of sort of sitting in cute little cafes. Um, they have really nice Portuguese custard tarts. So we're actually doing a cooking class while we're there, which would be good. Yeah, it should be nice. Um, I think it's going to be quite warm. It should be sort of early thirties, which is much warmer than it's been in the uK. So looking forward to seeing some sun and yeah, being by the beach.

[00:02:54] Bronwyn: That'll be really nice. You can get your vitamin D fix.

[00:02:57] Georgina: Exactly. Yes.

[00:02:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. So Georgina, could you share with us what it was like to get your registration? So my understanding is that you got your registration in Australia, right?

[00:03:08] Georgina: Yes, that's right.

[00:03:10] Bronwyn: Okay. So what was that like for you? Which pathway did you take?

[00:03:14] Georgina: So I, um, went through the Clinical Masters, so I did my, um, Undergrad, Bachelor of Psychology, then an Honours year, um, and then went on to do the two year Clinical Masters and the two year Registrar program.

[00:03:27] And I remember feeling very excited when I first got my registration. I think it was, it felt like sort of the end of a really long, um, you know, chunk of study. I'm sure lots of people have that experience. Um, but I remember feeling like after I finished my master's and was sort of getting ready to apply for jobs and get into the workplace, that that felt like a really big jump for me. I remember feeling like I wasn't ready to sort of start working as a psychologist and there was lots of imposter syndrome. So yeah, I was excited, but equally feeling quite nervous about the next steps.

[00:03:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, I think that's pretty natural. It is like university is almost like a safe and secure place. You have this structure and you know people and you know your lecturers and you know what to expect. And then it's kind of like the wild west when you're released into the workforce.

[00:04:15] Georgina: Very much so, yes.

[00:04:18] Bronwyn: So what was your first job as a psychologist?

[00:04:21] Georgina: So when I finished my Masters, I remember thinking that I, like I'd had really great placement experiences, but I remember feeling like I wanted more one on one experience and the opportunity to really hone my sort of one on one intervention skills.

[00:04:37] My first role out of university was in a private practice, working with mainly sort of young adults, um, and a few adolescents mixed in, but it was mainly a young adult population. And then I also, in that same year, took up a role in the public system as well, working in a children's hospital in an acute role, so working in the emergency department.

[00:04:56] So I did both of those roles part time, um, and that felt like quite a good balance, like the opportunity to have that sort of longer term work doing psychological interventions with people, but then also to dip my toes into sort of getting more skills in risk management, risk assessments, um, and being part of the public system as well.

[00:05:14] Bronwyn: And that was in Australia?

[00:05:16] Georgina: Yes, it was in Australia, so I finished, I graduated and then stayed in that same city for a couple of years for my first jobs.

[00:05:24] Bronwyn: Oh, awesome. And what was it like for you in those first jobs? Because the way you're saying it, it's kind of like, oh yes, this was a good balance, but I'm just wondering if imposter syndrome crept in, whether there was difficult, or maybe you found it really supportive of your skills.

[00:05:40] Georgina: Yes, um, I mean absolutely there was imposter syndrome. I think that there's always going to be a bit of that to be honest. Um, but I, I remember I had incredibly supportive supervisors. I was fortunate to have supervision from two, um, supervisors within that practice. And so I got the opportunity to kind of have different perspectives and to learn different ways of doing things from each of them. And I also had supervision in my public role as well.

[00:06:05] So I felt very well supported in terms of having a lot more experienced clinicians around me. And in the private practice in particular, it was just a lovely team of colleagues. Like everyone was so friendly. I had some other registrars there with me at the time. So, um, Yeah, as much as the, there was certainly imposter syndrome and it did still feel like a very steep learning curve and I do remember actually doing quite a bit of work outside of paid hours and that sort of thing to try and get on top of things, um, but yeah, it felt like it was a pretty good experience overall.

[00:06:36] Bronwyn: Yeah, it sounds like you're really nurtured, which is like how it should be really. It's like you're at the start of your career and, yeah, you really need that support around you and to have a lovely set of colleagues who you can ask questions of and feel supported by.

[00:06:50] Georgina: Yeah, I think especially in a private practice setting too, I think there's a risk, as you've talked about on your podcast, there's a real risk of being isolated and being kind of thrown in the deep end. So yeah, I was, I was fortunate that that wasn't my experience.

[00:07:03] Bronwyn: So, you mentioned that you stayed in Australia for a few years in those jobs and then is what happened next you moved countries?

[00:07:11] Georgina: No, so before, well, yes and no. So I, um, I guess so since, since I met my husband, so we, um, we met in one city and then moved somewhere so that I could do my clinical masters. Um, and then with both of our works, it's been mainly his job, but we've, we've sort of travelled around a little bit. We've lived in a couple of different cities in Australia.

[00:07:34] So, um, I did have, yeah, my first two years post graduating, I was in one place and then we moved to another city and so I had another job, or another couple of jobs actually, in that, in that place. Um, and then it was at the start of last year, 2023, that we relocated to the UK.

[00:07:50] Bronwyn: Wow. And had you ever lived in a different country before?

[00:07:54] Georgina: No, it was the first for both of us, so we didn't know what to expect. Yeah.

[00:07:58] Bronwyn: Wow. Okay. Well, maybe the first thing is could you take us through what it was like I guess, like, I didn't even know anything about the process. Like, do you transfer your registration over to the UK or did you have to gain more training in the UK? What was that like?

[00:08:12] Georgina: Yeah, it's a great question and it's something I'm really passionate about because I think that there's a lot of misconceptions about that process of going from Australia to the UK. I mean lots of people talk about doing that for like holidays or working in a pub but it's very doable to do it in a health care setting as well.

[00:08:28] For me, I had gained my clinical endorsement by that stage and I'd been working for about 12 months as a clinical psychologist, and so in Australia, obviously we have AHPRA and the Psychology Board of Australia and the equivalent of that in the UK is something called the Health and Care Professions Council or HCPC.

[00:08:46] And so on their website, they have really clear competencies for psychologists and for other healthcare professionals. And so I was sort of looking at, um, you know, they have the application process really clearly outlined on that website as well. And so basically I had to, I had to fill out a whole lot of forms and sort of different bits of paperwork to show how my training in Australia and my experience since qualifying met their standards for registration.

[00:09:13] That included things like getting lots of documentation from both my undergraduate university and my postgraduate university, um, and, you know, going into lots of details about the courses I'd done, um, learning outcomes, the types of assessments, like it was, it was a lot of information and it certainly took time to compile.

[00:09:31] And then I also had to give, I had to write sort of roughly a page doing like a professional experience summary for the different roles I'd held since graduating. Um, and again, I, you know, as part of that process, you're sort of looking at the competencies for a clinical psychologist in the UK and making sure that your Australian experience maps onto that.

[00:09:51] So that was the process and then you pay, you know, a nice hefty fee as you do for lots of healthcare organisations. Um, and then it took, I think it took about four months until I was registered. So it does, it does take time for them to go through and kind of compare everything.

[00:10:06] Bronwyn: Wow. And is there much difference between the competencies of Australian Clin Psychs compared to UK Clin Psychs? Like, did you find the mapping was pretty, like, it was a lot of effort to get those transcripts and unit outlines and the learning outcomes. But did you find it was pretty easy to map it on?

[00:10:24] Georgina: I think in general, yes. I think if I hadn't had experience post, um, post study, then perhaps it would have been more difficult because I do think, and I'll probably get into this, like the differences between the training and healthcare systems in the UK and Australia... I do think the UK system maybe is a little bit more I don't know if it's more rigorous or just a bit more in depth and so I felt like I did need to draw on some of my experience post qualifying as a clinical psychologist in order to be able to demonstrate some of the competencies.

[00:10:58] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe we can, maybe I can ask you before we get into the similarities and differences, just about how you felt about moving. Cause you know, like you're still early in your career, you're moving our country. You've never lived in a different country before. You're in a new place working in different health system. How did that feel for you?

[00:11:15] Georgina: Yeah, again, it's a good question. I think, um, like I was saying before, I've, um, moved around, I had moved around a little bit in Australia before we made the jump to the UK. So I guess, um, in some ways I was sort of used to, um, relocating and kind of, you know, leaving one job, starting another.

[00:11:33] Um, but when the opportunity came up for us to move to the UK for my husband's work, it was so exciting. I think we were both just, we kind of just jumped at it to be honest. I think we were living in, um, you know, we had some lovely friends around us and we were both in good jobs where we were, but I think we both had this sort of mindset of like, this is a, this is an opportunity that doesn't come up very often. Um, and yeah, we've always loved traveling and things like that. We'd never really thought about living overseas, but um, yeah, when the opportunity came up, we thought absolutely, why wouldn't we do that? So we were quite excited.

[00:12:07] Bronwyn: Yeah, that's amazing. And I guess like settling into the new country, like what was that like? Did you have a bit of culture shock?

[00:12:16] Georgina: I think because we were so excited about it, um, it felt like everything was sort of very novel. We arrived in the middle of winter and it was New Year's Day actually. So like arriving in London, there was lots of, you know, ice on the roads. And it, it just felt very like, it was felt very surreal is probably the best way to describe it.

[00:12:33] Like we kind of couldn't believe we were here. Um, but I think the, like, once you start sort of getting into the day to day life and then equally like starting in work, you do start to notice some sort of subtle differences between the cultures because obviously they're similar but there's, um, there's definitely nuances.

[00:12:49] So I wouldn't say we experienced culture shock, um, but it, yeah, it was certainly an adjustment but an exciting one so it was, it was a welcomed adjustment, I guess.

[00:12:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. And so, what was your first role in the UK? Like, where did you go into?

[00:13:05] Georgina: So when we arrived, um, I took, we, and we sort of had this plan that I would take, um, a month or so to settle in. Like we obviously had furniture and all our belongings arriving. We brought our cat over with us as well, so I needed to be home on cat mum duties to help her adjust.

[00:13:22] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:13:22] Georgina: So I took a bit of time to, yeah, settle in I guess. My husband started work fairly soon after we arrived. Um, but then I, yeah, I started looking for jobs shortly after we arrived and I knew that I really wanted to work in the NHS because I wanted to gain experience of working in an international, like a different healthcare system. Um, and so I was looking for NHS roles and the role that I'd been doing in Australia before moving over, well one of those roles, I was working in a school and I knew that I'd really enjoyed continuing to work with a child and adolescent population. So I was looking for NHS roles in like a CAMHS team. Um, and I was lucky enough to, yeah, get a role as a psychologist, a clinical psychologist in a CAMHS team in the UK.

[00:14:05] Bronwyn: Amazing. And what have you noticed about the differences in NHS and I guess Australia like Medicare or, or just our health system in general? I know it's a big question. Yeah.

[00:14:17] Georgina: It's again, it's a question that I, um, I find it really interesting to reflect on and it's been great to sort of talk about with some of my colleagues here to learn more about how, um, how things are run in the UK, you know, in terms of psychology.

[00:14:29] So I guess what I would say first is that I found it relatively easy to move between the systems. So going from working in Australia to the UK. But as I've worked more, I've noticed more subtle differences, um, so similar I guess to what I was saying about the adjustment to living here. I think it's very straightforward initially, but maybe you do start to notice some more subtle differences once you're further in, but yeah, I guess generally it felt quite similar in lots of ways.

[00:14:57] Some of the main differences, so in the UK it seems much more common for psychologists to work in the public system, so in the NHS. Um, I think it, like obviously private practice is still very much a thing here, but it does seem like most clinical psychologists will work in the NHS, um, certainly like during their training and also after their training. I think it would be quite rare for people to go straight into private practice from training, which is a bit different, I think, in Australia moment.

[00:15:26] Bronwyn: That's interesting. Yeah.

[00:15:28] Georgina: Um, and I think with that, that's helped by the fact that there seem to be a lot more public jobs available here. So there's um, no shortage of jobs as a psychologist in the NHS, so it's much easier to find work if you want to work in the public system, whereas in Australia, my experience was that there's less of those positions, um, particularly if you want like a psychology specific role.

[00:15:52] Some of the other differences, I've got a bit of a list really. There's, it's been really interesting to sort of reflect. Sorry!

[00:15:58] Bronwyn: Just on, yeah, just on, um, I guess like psychologists working in public in the NHS in the UK. Do you happen to know if the NHS might be funded more than public health here in Australia?

[00:16:11] Georgina: I suspect it would be. I don't know exact -

[00:16:15] Bronwyn: Like for sure.

[00:16:16] Georgina: But I would, I would, I'd be really surprised if it wasn't because, um, people like the training courses are well funded in that, you know, trainee psychologists, which would be our equivalent of a provisional psychologist. They are paid to do their placements and they work in the NHS. Um, and so I, yeah, I think there is... there's likely more spending on the public system in the UK than Australia, but don't, don't quote me on that.

[00:16:40] Bronwyn: No, I won't quote you on it, but it's just, yeah, it's thinking on like public health here in Australia. My understanding is that, they would like more people to work in public health here in Australia, but there's not the funding to fund those positions. So, um, there's, there's, there's, it's almost like there's a shortage because there is the lack of funding for public health. Whereas in the UK, it, it seems that there, there seems to be more support for employing psychologists.

[00:17:06] Georgina: Yes, I think so. And I think with that, that, um, kind of brings me to another difference I've noticed, which is that I think psychology tends to be seen as a more separate specialist discipline in the UK public sector as well.

[00:17:19] Bronwyn: Yeah. Tell us about that.

[00:17:21] Georgina: So what I've noticed is that a lot of the jobs are advertised as psychology jobs, so it might be a job position for a forensic psychologist or for a clinical psychologist rather than jobs advertised for like an allied health clinician or a mental health clinician, which seems to be more the more common model in Australia at the moment where you might be competing for a job with like a social worker or an OT, like it's a more generalist job description.

[00:17:46] So I think that, yeah, I guess my observation has been that the jobs then that you do as a psychologist in the UK seem to involve a bit more psychology. They just seem a bit more... is a bit more specific to, like, your training, and it has a focus on you as a psychologist rather than as a mental health clinician, if that makes sense?

[00:18:06] Bronwyn: Yeah, that makes sense because my understanding with mental health clinician roles as they're being advertised in Australia is that it can be kind of a mishmash. So you might be doing case management or consultation or supervision of other people in your team. And there might not be any direct one on one work. Um, whereas it sounds like you're saying that for a psychologist position, there is more of an emphasis on client facing work.

[00:18:30] Georgina: Absolutely. Like in my CAMHS team, for example, so my role, I mean, my role does involve, yes, one on one client work. It also involves some supervision as well. But, um, the psychologists are sort of, we get referrals coming to us from other people in the team and then we have a waiting list that we manage and then we pick up, you know, we take it in terms of picking up young people to work with to then do a one on one intervention with.

[00:18:53] So, um, it does feel like there's less sort of case management... you still have obviously all that kind of liaising with other professionals and multi agency work, but yes, it does feel like you're, I guess my, my identity maybe as a psychologist has been a little bit stronger in this role. I feel like I've been able to, and I'm speaking really only to working in the public space, it might be very different if I worked privately, but I do feel quite a strong sense of being a psychologist here.

[00:19:23] Bronwyn: That's awesome. Are there any other differences or similarities that you've noticed?

[00:19:28] Georgina: Uh, yes, I would say, just on like a, if we're thinking about, um, work conditions. So the registration fees here are cheaper than going through, um, registration fees in Australia. Um, and you also get more annual leave. Again, I'm talking purely on a public system basis, but I -

[00:19:46] Bronwyn: How much do you-

[00:19:47] Georgina: -of roughly, It's about 27 days.

[00:19:50] So, and then it's obviously pro rata. So I I think it works out to be about just over five weeks of annual leave. So it feels like a nice amount. It's not a huge difference to Australia, but it's, yeah, just that little bit extra.

[00:20:03] Another thing I would say, uh, and probably this is one of the main differences I've noticed about the healthcare system here is that there's more opportunities to do psychology work as a non psychologist. So, they have a few different roles here, like for example, a psychology assistant, or a CBT therapist, or a children's well being practitioner, um, and these are all positions where you, like there's a qualification attached to some of them, so for example, to become a CBT therapist or a children's well being practitioner, you do a course and you're able to deliver certain types of psychological therapy.

[00:20:43] It's obviously heavily supervised and regulated, um, but I think because there's more roles that are able to do psychological work, it means that we're able to meet more of the population, more of the demand, I guess, for psychological intervention. And it's structured in a way that, you know, a CBT therapist would be working within their scope of practice with someone who, um, needs that type of treatment, and they can work with sort of a manualised therapy, for example, and perhaps someone who needs a more individualised or complex, um, has more complex needs, they might see a clinical psychologist. But it just means that the needs of the public can be met in a different way, and I think in Australia at the moment, um, and I did notice in the recent budget there was talk about bringing out a psychology assistant role, which is really interesting.

[00:21:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, I saw that. I was going to ask you about that.

[00:21:33] Georgina: Yeah, I think it sounds like they're hoping to model that off the UK system, which I think wouldn't be a bad thing. I think it's just about making sure that there's the kind of training and supervision in place.

[00:21:42] Um, but I guess like, if, if it's helpful to give an example in, um, part of my role, I work with young people with eating disorders and I had a psychology assistant working like who I was supervising. Um, and she was able to do things like deliver manualised treatments like CBT T, so CBT 10. She would often join initial assessments and help in terms of the admin. So she would write up the clinical notes. She would write up the appointment letters. She would help with things like screening calls. So when we get referrals coming in, we usually do like a five to 10 minute screening call first, just to tease out and make sure that they are appropriate for that next step of an assessment.

[00:22:22] So it just sort of means that, um, some of those tasks that of course psychologists can do, um, but it just means that they can be done by someone else, which frees up our time to then work with more people who might need more intensive support, if that makes sense.

[00:22:36] Bronwyn: That makes sense. It sounds like it's a really helpful position.

[00:22:39] Georgina: Absolutely, it's been a really helpful position for me. Like, I've, I've definitely noticed the benefits from it, both professionally and personally. And I think for the team, it makes a big difference as well. So, yeah, I think it'd be great if Australia moved in that direction.

[00:22:53] Bronwyn: No, that's really good to hear because I, I also saw the, the mention or um, maybe reference to psychology assistants in the budget and I just didn't know what they were and I noticed some other people's reactions were a bit um, maybe say like hesitant or a bit fearful and so it's really good to hear from you about what do they actually do because I was like I don't, I don't get it but um, no, hearing from you it sounds like it's quite a helpful role.

[00:23:18] Georgina: I think, yes, I mean, I think the, the hesitation is understandable if it's not something we're used to but I think it's just about making sure that there's really clear, um, boundaries in place and, and really, like, good support, you know, frequent supervision, everything is sort of signed off by someone with more experience, like, it's just about how the role is set up, I think, so, yeah.

[00:23:39] Bronwyn: Yeah. And just going back to, I guess, like the CBT therapists being able to serve more of the community... one thing that I've heard about the NHS is that the wait lists are very long. So is, is that true? Like, do you know if that's true? And, do you think these roles help with that?

[00:23:56] Georgina: Yes, I think, um, I, I'm not aware, I can't remember the name of the exact, um, document, but there was like a review that took place, I think it was around 2010, that was looking into how to meet the needs of, well, the psychological needs of, um, the population, and, and it was around trying to sort of improve access times and that sort of thing.

[00:24:15] So I think, yes, waiting lists are still long, I know in our service at the moment it's maybe an average of three months to be able to start seeing one of the clinical psychologists in the team. Um, but equally I think it's, I think it's better than it has been. And I'm not sure about other services like, um, like adult services for example, but I think my understanding is that it's, it's at least a little bit better than it was.

[00:24:38] Bronwyn: Yeah, that doesn't sound too bad actually. Like it's not, it's not great. Like it'd be ideal if people could access the help they need when they need it. Um, but in what I've heard is like waitlist of like a year or more sort of thing. So to me that sounds pretty all right.

[00:24:52] Georgina: Yeah, I think, and it's probably, I suppose it's very dynamic as well, isn't it? Like, you might get an influx of referrals at a particular time of year, or like post COVID, so I think, yeah, three months is probably, is probably on the better end of what the waitlist has been in our team, but yeah, it's not too bad.

[00:25:09] Bronwyn: And is there any other difference between the healthcare systems that, um, you wanted to make us aware of?

[00:25:15] Georgina: I guess one other thing I would just mention is that in the UK, and well in the NHS anyway, you're able to provide supervision to more junior members of staff without a formal qualification. So they do have qualifications in supervision, um, but it's very different to Australia. Obviously in Australia we need to do like the staff approved courses to become a supervisor. So whereas here, um, I think there is some emphasis on actually supervision skills as part of the postgraduate training to become a clinical psychologist. And, um, so you're able to supervise, for example, like an assistant psychologist, or at the moment I supervise, um, a psychologist who she graduated from her D.Clin. Psych last year. So there is an emphasis on kind of starting supervision earlier, um, without necessarily needing a formal qualification in that.

[00:26:03] Bronwyn: Wow. That's really interesting. From like your perspective, is that helpful to be able to learn those supervisory skills early?

[00:26:11] Georgina: I think in some ways, yes, I think it sort of needs to be balanced and I, and I guess, I think there is lots of, um, thinking about where someone is at in their career as well, like making sure that you're supervising someone who is at an appropriate level, like in terms of them being maybe junior enough.

[00:26:29] Um, so I, I think, yeah, it is helpful as well, I guess, in terms of efficiency. Like it frees up the more senior, senior clinical psychologist in the team to then not have to supervise everyone. But yeah, I guess there can be downsides as well if you, if you sort of feel like it's... it could cause more imposter syndrome, for example, like if you feel like you don't know what you're doing, it's just another aspect of, oh, this is another thing to learn.

[00:26:50] So, yeah, but my experience has been, it's, um, there's been a bit of that, for sure, but it's, um, it's been a refreshing sort of skill set to try and learn.

[00:26:59] Bronwyn: . And I mean, sometimes, you know, talking about the imposter syndrome, sometimes it can be helpful with that. If you are telling or teaching somebody the things you have learnt and you can reinforce to you like, hey, I actually do know things that I can teach to other people.

[00:27:16] Georgina: Yes. I think there's something really validating about that, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:21] And I'm just, I was just going to say I'm really conscious as I've been saying all of this, I've been quite heavy on sort of the things that are really great about the UK system, and I wanted to make sure that I mentioned a couple of things that I found are much better in Australia. And one of them is that the pay tends to be a bit higher in Australia. So that's a big difference I've noticed here and the fact that we have Medicare, I think, of course, you know, there's lots of discussion about the faults of Medicare and the limitations, and I know going from, say, 20 sessions to 10 sessions, that was really controversial, but I think it, in terms of accessing private psychology, my understanding is that there's not that same sort of system in the UK. I think there are people can pay with like private health insurance, but that there's not like a government, um, funded program that helps people to be able to access private services. Again, probably because they're trying to funnel them into accessing the NHS public services.

[00:28:15] Bronwyn: And like, is that a thing in the UK that people, like when they think of seeking psychology services, they do think, okay, I'll go contact the NHS?

[00:28:24] Georgina: I think it's generally the first port of call because it's um, I guess because it's a free service and because there are there's so many different teams like, you know, depending on where you live it's all about sort of catchment areas but I think generally yes it's the same system where people might go to their GP, GP will refer them, I guess it's a personal choice. If people want to access private psychology, they can. But, yeah, obviously some people won't be able to access it. So I think the NHS might be more common for people to access public services.

[00:28:59] Bronwyn: No, that's really interesting. And just on the pay difference, sometimes pay can reflect how much you value a service. And I was just curious, like, do you feel that psychologists are valued in the UK?

[00:29:14] Georgina: And I think, again, for me that, yeah, it's interesting, yes, thinking, yes, the salary is a bit lower, but I think that's reflective of most salaries in the UK. I think generally healthcare, people in healthcare are paid more in Australia than in the UK. Um, as a psychologist, I felt very valued and I think that's also tied up in the fact that there's, um, very clear, like, like I was saying before, like their psychology specific roles, you've got a very clear sort of job description that you're, and role in the team, so I think that has helped in terms of you, it does feel like it's a very valued discipline.

[00:29:49] Bronwyn: Oh, no, that's really good to hear. And yeah, just you speaking to like that job clarity, it's like, oh, that'd be nice.

[00:29:55] Georgina: Yeah.

[00:29:55] Bronwyn: It helps you to know like what it is that you're doing and exactly what skills you're bringing to the table.

[00:30:01] Georgina: Yeah, and I guess I would say as well on that, like, this is, you know, this is all just based off my own experiences and I fully recognise that there might be, um, other people might have had some really different experiences or they might see things differently, so take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt, but this has been my experience based off one role that I've had in the UK.

[00:30:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, and it's really interesting to hear like this experience, completely recognising that it's your experience. Somebody could have a completely different time, but I think it's really insightful for listeners to know because, like, I don't know anything about working in the UK, so it's great for me.

[00:30:36] Georgina: It's a bit of a mystery.

[00:30:37] Bronwyn: Yeah, it is, it is totally a mystery. Um, it's like I've just heard things and it's like, but I have no idea if they're true. So it's It's kind of like you're giving us an insider perspective. And yeah, even if it is one perspective, it's still a great opening to that world.

[00:30:52] Okay. Let's move on to training differences. I'm really interested in this. Like, what have you noticed?

[00:30:59] Georgina: So, I guess the similarities are, well that I've noticed, the similarities are that it's quite competitive to get into postgraduate training programs. So, you know, there's fewer positions than people who want to apply, and there's the same model of, you know, Postgraduate training comes after undergraduate, more sort of theoretical training in psychology before you can go on and do that more applied clinical training.

[00:31:23] Um, and then the differences that I've noticed, so in the UK it feels to me a bit like the training is more standardised in the sense that it's just a single postgraduate program that people do, which is the doctorate. So that's a three year course that people do. Um, whereas obviously in Australia we have multiple pathways, and I think there's pros and cons of both, but it does feel a little bit like things are very sort of tightly standardised and regulated here.

[00:31:48] I was saying before that people are paid on their placements, which I think makes such a huge difference that people are paid, you know, while they're undertaking their placements because it's the same sort of time expectation that we would have in our, say, clinical master's externships like in terms of being on placement three to four days a week and then balancing that with your studies and your dissertation. But yeah, the fact that their people are paid and they're employed by the NHS I think is amazing.

[00:32:13] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. I just, I mean, because I could rant about that for ages, but I'm very pro being paid on placement. I just think it increases the accessibility of becoming a psychologist. Like if you, because yeah, if you can't afford, like if you've got kids or, um, you know, you need to work to be able to support your family and your own needs, it's like the psychology pathway might be impossible for you. So yeah, that's really awesome that people are paid for their internships.

[00:32:40] Georgina: Yeah, it makes such a difference. And I think in terms of the courses themselves, some of the differences I've noticed are that there does seem to be an emphasis on developing supervisor competencies, as I said before, um, and also leadership competencies. So I think psychologists can quite commonly tend to take on leadership roles in multidisciplinary teams, um, and so I think the, the training program, the doctorate does, um, contain a bit, it has a bit of an emphasis on helping people develop some of those skills. Obviously you then hone them with lots of experience, but that, that is explicitly taught in those programs.

[00:33:13] And then probably the last observation, and again this is just based off my experience, but I think because of the fact that it's easier to get psychology experience without being a psychologist in the UK because of these roles, like being an assistant psychologist or a support worker, I've sort of noticed that that means that the people who get onto the training program, the doctorate, tend to have a lot more experience coming in. So they've been able to get some sort of on the job experience in an MDT. Um, you know, they're maybe a little bit familiar actually even with some psychological interventions themselves before they start that training program.

[00:33:47] So I think again, it's, it's a shame that in Australia it's so hard at the moment to get that experience before you start your postgrad study because you kind of come in not, almost not even knowing if it's, if it's work that actually you're going to enjoy doing. So yeah.

[00:34:01] Bronwyn: Totally, absolutely. And let's move on to some of the positives and challenges that you've experienced so far in your career. What do you enjoy most about your role right now and what have been some other positives that you've experienced?

[00:34:16] Georgina: So I guess in my current role, I, um, I feel really lucky to be in such an amazing team. So I've got some really lovely colleagues and I think it's been so nice to meet lots of really friendly, passionate people, um, both in my immediate team, but also in the broader psychology team and in the area that I work in. So I really enjoyed that aspect.

[00:34:37] Um, and I quite like the diversity of my role as well. So I spend, you know, I work four days a week at the moment. I've got. I've got two days where I'm in what's called kind of a core CAMHS team, um, so that's working with more sort of general presentations, like it might be trauma, it might be depression, anxiety disorders, OCD. And then the other two days of my role are based in the eating disorder side of the team. So I get a really nice sort of diversity of presentations, um, which I enjoy.

[00:35:04] And I also get to do, as I said before, sort of supervision as part of my role. So I enjoy getting the opportunities to work with some of my more junior colleagues. Um, and I've also been fortunate to deliver some training in my role as well.

[00:35:17] So as well as sort of doing the psychological work one on one with people, I've also been able to use my skills in other ways and to sort of share my knowledge with others, which as an early career psychologist can certainly breed, um, imposter syndrome, but equally it's, as you were saying before, like, it's a really nice reminder of my skills and, um, it's, yeah, it's just been a nice way to diversify the role because I think sometimes doing a really heavy, having a really heavy clinical lean to your work can be quite tiring. So I've really enjoyed that diversity.

[00:35:48] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, and we've talked about that on the podcast as well, that idea that to prevent burnout, diversifying the kinds of work that you do can really help with that. And it really sounds like that it has helped, I guess, with your enjoyment and yeah, reducing that risk of burnout.

[00:36:04] Georgina: Definitely.

[00:36:06] Bronwyn: I'm so glad that you're in a nourishing, supportive environment. It is wonderful. Um, so tell us about any challenges that you faced.

[00:36:13] Georgina: Yeah, I guess I, and I might extend this to thinking more broadly about what it's been like moving around and sort of having different jobs over the years, if that's okay. Yeah, because I suppose since graduating, I don't know if I could count how many roles I've had, but essentially I've probably not been in a role longer than two years because of the relocations.

[00:36:34] And so, the main challenge that I've noticed with that is this idea of the balance of depth of experience versus breadth of experience. So I think the fact that I've been able to work across lots of different roles in these first five, six years of my career has been great in the sense of getting to learn about different systems, learning about the role of psychology and of a psychologist in different settings as well.

[00:36:58] But what it's meant is that it's been hard for me to get that sort of depth of experience that comes when you stay in a role, you know, for a number of years and you might be able to sort of move up a bit or, or just, you know, get your head around things a bit more. I think, yeah, thinking about that sort of depth versus breadth of experience, sometimes that has led, uh, sometimes that has led to experiencing, um, imposter syndrome, where, you know, even though I might be able to, I know I've worked as a psychologist now for 5 years.

[00:37:27] If I've only been in a certain role for one year, I can still very much feel like, gosh, I don't know what I'm doing on some days, and so it can make you feel that sort of self doubt, even though you do know that over time, like, you have had that experience. So that's been, you know, challenging at times.

[00:37:44] Bronwyn: Well, I'll just say that, um, I mean, like, that's the, that's the thing about imposter syndrome. It's kind of this discrepancy between what we logically know and how we emotionally feel. So it's like, logically, we can be like, look, I know this stuff and I've had this experience, but we still feel like we're going to get found out at any moment that we know nothing.

[00:38:01] Georgina: Exactly. Yes. Very much so. Yeah.

[00:38:04] Bronwyn: yeah. No, so that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And have there been any other challenges?

[00:38:09] Georgina: I think sometimes I felt quite guilty when leaving roles. Like I know, again, that logically, um, you're never forced to stay, like you're never obliged to stay in a role. But certainly it's been hard sometimes, um, feeling maybe guilty for leaving clients or leaving employers I've really enjoyed working with.

[00:38:26] Leaving jobs that I've enjoyed has been tricky. I remember like leaving my first job after graduating. I found that really hard. I really, um, wasn't sure about the move, but obviously, you know, discussed it with my husband and it was the right thing for our circumstances. But, um, yeah, it's always hard to leave a job that you don't feel ready to leave. You can kind of see that there could be more growth or more opportunities to gain from it. So yeah, that's been tricky at times.

[00:38:50] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess like, what supports have you had or like, you know, how do you, how do you manage the challenges and kind of keep going?

[00:38:59] Georgina: Yeah, part of it comes down to mindset, you know, being a psychologist, of course, we think about mindset. So I think I've like initially in my sort of earlier years, I didn't, I saw it as a really negative thing. Like, I always saw it as sort of a limitation. The fact that I was moving around. And I worried about the impact that that would have on my career, but I think over time I've certainly come to appreciate it more as a strength and recognize that it's given me some really unique experiences and skills. And so I think it's about trying to sort of shift the mindset you have to sort of see things as an opportunity rather than a limitation.

[00:39:34] And I guess on a more practical level, you know, it always comes back to things like routines. And you know, when you move somewhere new, like, go out and explore and kind of see it as a bit of an adventure. Find your new cafe, like, try and make friends with people. Try and pick up hobbies that you've enjoyed in previous places. Like, it's about trying to sort of re establish yourself somewhere new. And then for me, I think something that my husband and I have always said is that it's about making, um, Like, home is kind of where you are, so home doesn't have to be a place, it can be about like, who you're with. So for us, like, knowing that the two of us are kind of doing this together, we've got our cat that has travelled around all these places with us too, so trying to just stay grounded and, yeah, focus on yourselves. It's like a bit of a unit, and then obviously the support of friends and family too always makes it so much easier.

[00:40:18] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. No, I'm really glad that you have those supports around you. And yeah, the mindset is so important, hey.

[00:40:24] Georgina: Hmm, makes such a difference. But yeah, it's not always easy, I probably make it sound like it's straightforward, but that's definitely, that's definitely not always been my experience, it's sometimes been really tricky.

[00:40:33] Bronwyn: And I guess like maybe just turning to, what do you want listeners to know about this early stage of your career? Like if they could take away something or maybe there's something that you wish you would known, what do you want them to know?

[00:40:46] Georgina: Yeah I think this is, I was thinking about this question when you sent it through and I, I think the main sort of messages I suppose I would hope to leave people with is that don't overthink your career. I think there's so much pressure when you're at university and doing your placements to like make sure you're getting the right experience, make sure you're getting enough hours with adults, enough hours with adolescents and children like, and there's lots of people talking about what their first job's going to be outside of uni.

[00:41:11] So I think there's, we can put a lot of pressure on ourselves to kind of carve out this career, but I guess what I've learned over time is that it's, there's nothing wrong with getting lots of experience in different areas and there's no rule that says that you have to have a career in one area. Um, don't be afraid to try new things. I think you can really gain some unique skills and experience from that.

[00:41:31] So, yeah. I guess, yeah, don't, don't overthink the career side of things. And equally that you can learn so much from working in different systems, especially internationally. And I recognize that's not going to be realistic for everyone, but it certainly is something that I would really recommend. I think I'm really grateful that I've had the opportunity to compare these two systems. And I think it's, it's definitely helped me as a psychologist. So yeah.

[00:41:54] Bronwyn: I think that's really awesome and it really echoes things that I've heard from other people who have shared their listener's story. Like there's a lot to be gained, I think, from embracing diversity and not trying to be so concrete in the way that your career will go. Like you say, it's like there's so much to pick up from doing things different.

[00:42:11] Georgina: Yeah, and I think as well, like, you know, I'm in my early thirties. I've got so many years to practice and to figure out what I want to do. Like, you know, if I do want to stay in the one job for a bit, maybe I'll do that one day. I mean, I hope I will. I definitely do want a bit more stability at some point. So, um, yeah, but there's, there's so much time. I think there's, there's no rush to sort of figure it all out. So...

[00:42:33] Bronwyn: I agree. And you know, I hear that from people sometimes and they're like, oh, maybe I should stop chopping and changing. But it's like, look, if something's not working out for you and you could say that something else might offer different skills or opportunities, I say go for it.

[00:42:47] Georgina: Definitely, absolutely.

[00:42:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. And where do you see your career going in the next few years? I know we're just talking about like, just go with the flow sort of thing, but like, you know, have you got an idea of where you might go?.

[00:42:58] Georgina: I think for me, this current role that I'm in has really confirmed for me that I do really enjoy working with a child and youth population. So I think, um, wherever I end up, I'd like to continue working with children and adolescents.

[00:43:11] Um, it's also helped me realise that I do really enjoy working in that team environment too. So I think I'd like to continue in that sort of public space, or at least if it was a private space, to have that sort of robust MDT around me. I think that there's nothing like being able to sort of learn from your colleagues and to have that really supportive collegial space.

[00:43:30] And I suppose the other interests that I have for the next few years are, I'd like to do my supervisor training in Australia at some point, so that that can be kind of formally recognised. And then I'm quite interested in teaching, so whether, you know, it's something I've been able to do a bit of in my current role and it's something I'd like to be able to do more of, so, I don't know, I sort of, I have vague ideas about how I could incorporate that into my work.

[00:43:56] Um, but equally, I think having had this experience of working in the UK, it's led to this sort of, I feel quite passionate, I guess, about systems and like service improvement as well. So I think if there was some way, yeah, I have sort of vague ideas about what that could look like, but I think I'm quite passionate about the idea of taking some of what I've observed and learnt and seeing if that can help improve other, um, other systems or places as well.

[00:44:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, so like systemic change and I guess creating better systems.

[00:44:26] Georgina: Yes, and I, that's, yeah. It's just, I think, I just think that there's lots to be, like, there's lots we can learn from, from other healthcare systems.

[00:44:34] Bronwyn: And Georgina, is there anything that we haven't covered today that you really want listeners to know about?

[00:44:41] Georgina: I think if I can just say that it is very doable to transfer your registration and work in the UK, so I think sometimes I see on like Facebook forums people um, putting out the idea, yeah people are like, oh I really want to go to the UK, and then you get people writing on like, don't do it, you know, you need a doctorate, you won't be able to, um, but actually, you know, it's very doable and I've, I know of people who have general psychology registration who have gained registration as a clinical psychologist in the UK.

[00:45:09] So it's really about how you um, how you demonstrate the equivalence of your competencies and you know if you do need more training then then you do that in Australia or I think I don't know if this is a current thing but I know previously there were um, there were avenues to gain more training and experience in the UK if they felt that you you didn't meet the criteria for all their competencies. I think that might be more a thing of the past but yeah it's very doable and it's a great experience so I would encourage people to do it if they can.

[00:45:38] Bronwyn: It's really good to hear that because yeah, I have seen it so much and then I've seen those same comments where people like, don't do it, it will be hard, like you'll have to do five years extra training or something. So it's really great to hear from you that it is a doable venture and there are opportunities and avenues if you do need further training.

[00:45:56] Georgina: Very much.

[00:45:56] Bronwyn: Yeah. And lastly, what do you hope that listeners will take away from our conversation today? Maybe it was that?

[00:46:02] Georgina: No, I was gonna say, no, I think that's probably the main thing to be honest and just, I think it's like keeping an open mind, isn't it? Because again, like, we can put so much pressure on ourselves, um, and I certainly have done that and continue to do that in some aspects, so it's just about really keeping an open mind and not being afraid to try new things.

[00:46:20] Bronwyn: No, I think that's a really good message as well because that feeling of pressure is something that I feel like I've observed more and more in early career psychologists and like I've certainly felt it myself, but I feel like there is so much pressure to have everything worked out from the start and we have to know everything from the start. You have to have five different acronyms of therapy under your belt straight away. And it's like, you know, you don't have to have all of that. It's all good!

[00:46:44] Georgina: Yeah, exactly, exactly. There's so much time.

[00:46:47] Bronwyn: And like our skills are also really good as well. Like, you know, even with the imposter syndrome, I'm sure that you've had the experience of being like, Ha, I know a thing or two.

[00:46:55] Georgina: 100%. And it's very, like our skills are very transferable. I think we have a really unique skill set as psychologists. Um, and that we have a lot to offer, you know, both in the private system and the public system. So, yeah, I think we should be proud of that for sure.

[00:47:08] Bronwyn: I agree. And, Georgina, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:47:14] Georgina: So, I have an Instagram page that I started when I moved over here. Um, it's theoverseaspyschologist, all one word. It is a little bit neglected at times, I'm not going to lie. It kind of fluctuates depending on how busy I am, if I'm travelling or if I'm feeling a bit stressed with work and not wanting to spend lots of time on my phone. I have a love hate relationship with Instagram.

[00:47:34] Bronwyn: Me too.

[00:47:34] Georgina: But yeah, if people are interested or they have any questions, the best place to reach me is on my Instagram page.

[00:47:41] Bronwyn: Wonderful. I will pop a link to that in the show notes. That would be so valuable to have a resource, um, that people could use to help them understand better how to, I guess, yeah, work in the UK.

[00:47:51] So Georgina, thank you again for coming on the podcast and sharing this really valuable experience with us. I know, I know I learned a lot and I, I'm sure listeners did too. And it was just really interesting and yeah, congratulations on moving to the UK and taking this leap and yeah, it sounds like really thriving in it.

[00:48:06] Georgina: Oh, thank you so much. It's been really nice to reflect with you and to share my experience. So, yeah, I hope it helps some people.

[00:48:13] Bronwyn: And listeners, if you did enjoy this episode, please do follow the podcast and give us a five star rating and review. It really does help other people find the podcast. And if you have a mate who might benefit from hearing this, do put it in their ears. Like maybe you've got a friend who wants to move to the UK. Give it, give it to them. Make sure they listen to it.

[00:48:30] That's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.