Navigating the psychology pathway while managing a disability (with Courtney McKee & Karen Knight)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, Mental Workers, welcome back to the Mental Work podcast, your companion to early career psychology, hosted by me, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins.

[00:00:11] Today, I'm really excited to bring to you a story about living with disability, and it's about becoming a psychologist when you are a human who also lives with a disability. This episode was prompted by a listener who got in touch with me saying that they have a vision disability and that they really wanted to hear from other psychologists who have gone through the pathway themselves and about various aspects of that journey for them.

[00:00:35] And I'm so grateful then to have two fabulous guests with me today. Their names are Karen Knight and Courtney McKee. And I'm really excited to share with you their journey, some aspects of being a psychologist who lives with a disability, and any tips and hints that they have for you. I hope it's a delightful episode for you. So welcome, Karen. Welcome, Courtney.

[00:00:58] Courtney: Hello everyone.

[00:01:00] Karen: Hi everyone and thanks for having us.

[00:01:02] Bronwyn: My pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for your time. And maybe I'll start with Karen. Karen, could you please introduce yourself and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:01:11] Karen: Sure. So I started to become a psychologist a long time ago and so I've had a lifetime to look at a whole lot of other passions. Um, I've had 35 years of work history. My other passions in life are reading and ballroom dancing. I'm also a mum of two children who are now in their early 20s.

[00:01:35] Bronwyn: Wonderful. Thank you. And Courtney, could you please tell us who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:01:41] Courtney: Um, so my name's Courtney, I live in Brisbane, in Queensland, um, I'm the manager of an allied health team providing services to children, young people, their families and their school teams, uh, when those children are blind or who have low vision.

[00:01:59] I have been a psychologist for around about 16 years and I'm blind myself. And I'm the mum of a seeing eye dog called Kovu and that's about it. My passion is being a dog lover and an avid reader.

[00:02:17] Bronwyn: Lovely. Yes, I'm also a dog lover. Gosh, dogs sound amazing. Um, so I think we'll just start off today by having you both tell us a little bit about your journey in psychology. It both sounds like you're very experienced and you've got a long career in psychology, so I'm not sure if you can recall back, but maybe Courtney, could you tell us a few things about what it was like to gain your registration as a psychologist and as a human who's living with a disability?

[00:02:44] Courtney: I think my first interest in becoming a psychologist was back in high school and it was mainly prompted by my fellow students and my teachers who noticed that I was a good listener. And I think as somebody who has a vision impairment, you rely very heavily on what you can hear going on around you and you qualify, I guess, what you're taking in through your ears, um, with some micro counseling skills that sort of come naturally, like paraphrasing to check your understanding.

[00:03:15] Um, so I went into psychology initially straight out of school, study of psych, and I kind of bounced around for a few years in different, different courses, explored being a, you know, a long term tertiary student, um, but eventually came back to psychology because it's such a versatile, career pathway. It lends itself to so many different opportunities.

[00:03:41] And I guess when I started In my tertiary studies, I went straight to my disability access advisor. Um, they're called different things, but essentially in every tertiary education, institution, you will find somebody who's there to support people with diverse needs as students. Um, I needed things like orientation to the environment, which is a very specialist, um, training that you receive as somebody who's vision impaired to navigate independently through complex spaces like campuses. I needed ways of accessing my, uh, materials, so textbooks in particular. And back when I was studying, I started with textbooks in audio format on cassettes all the way through to CDs and then, um, eventually approaching the different distributors of the textbooks for an e version, and of course, it's very different these days where people can just grab an e book off the internet without even having to think about it.

[00:04:45] I went on after my tertiary studies, actually during the end of my tertiary studies to volunteer with Lifeline because I knew that practical experience was going to be what actually got me through the door as somebody with a disability, so I was anticipating barriers before I even got there. And really straight out of my studies, I found kind of the perfect gig, which was at Vision Australia as a counsellor where my disability actually turned out to be an asset rather than essentially, uh, something that caused people to, um, wonder if I could do the job. It was something that enabled me to do the job better.

[00:05:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that's amazing. And when you say, like, you're anticipating barriers, I guess, before they had taken place, is that, I guess, something that it's like to live the life of a person with a vision disability? Um, that you are anticipating that? Or that people might perceive your disability as a barrier to doing work?

[00:05:42] Courtney: I think throughout your life, you, um, internalize the stereotypes and the stigma that society has for you as somebody with a disability. It's called internalized oppression. And you learn ways of responding to that constructively, um, both in terms of, um, managing it in terms of your own identity and your self esteem, but also in practical response to the world.

[00:06:13] So educating people, um, developing practical workarounds and, um, planning ahead. So anticipating the barriers that you're likely to face. You're not necessarily definitely going to face them, but it's likely based on your previous experiences that you will.

[00:06:31] Bronwyn: Mm. So you're needing to think a few steps ahead.

[00:06:34] Courtney: Yes.

[00:06:35] Bronwyn: Thank you so much for sharing that journey of coming through psychology. I guess we'll hear more about the journey a bit later, but let's just go on to Karen from now.

[00:06:44] Karen, could you please tell us about your journey into psychology and how you got interested in it and how was your journey towards registration?

[00:06:53] Karen: So my journey had some similarities to Courtney's. I went straight into psychology after I left school also. And when I was thinking about what to do after school, I didn't really have any idea, but it seemed to me that I was interested in people and I was interested in how people ticked. And I thought that psychology might be help me along those lines.

[00:07:18] So I went to study psychology. Now this, was in the mid 80s and the world for a blind student at university was really different then. The only way you could take notes was to use a tape recorder and then go home and take your braille notes from that or take notes in whatever form suited you.

[00:07:39] Bronwyn: That sounds like a really long process to do that.

[00:07:42] Karen: Oh, look it was. It was a very long process. But I guess you did learn the material because you were hearing it two or three times.

[00:07:48] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:07:49] Karen: Then in terms of textbooks, I had to, uh, work closely with the disability liaison officers as well to get access to the textbooks. But the only way I could get access to them was having someone read the, uh, on, um, cassette. So there was a group of volunteers that would do that. And so that was, that was a great way to get access to the material, but it was really hard when people said, Oh, go to page 39, but you had no way of knowing where on the cassette, was page 39.

[00:08:20] So that was how I did my undergraduate degree. Uh, when I went back to do my Masters a few years after that, there was more access to material. Still not fantastic, but absolutely more access to it. We could get some electronic files by then. But when I finished my undergraduate and did my fourth year, then you could get registered then. Not like now where it's a much, much longer pathway. You could get registered after four years. And so that's what I did.

[00:08:49] And I was possibly naive and didn't anticipate that I would have all the barriers to getting a job that I did. So, what I decided to do was take on volunteer work and I worked at an organisation called Victims of Crime Association and I worked full time for a year there as a volunteer. And for me, there was a lot of positives about that.

[00:09:14] First of all, It gave me structure in my day. It gave me something to put on my resume because most people who are blind or low vision and people with other disabilities too don't always have those teenage jobs where you can put something on a CV. I had nothing. So I could put something on a CV. Um, I could talk to others about how I overcame various aspects of working in a workplace, and I could also demonstrate to other people in that organisation that yes, I could actually do the job. So, that built my confidence and it also gave me experience in how to talk to others about my disability and how to, um, talk to others specifically about being a psychologist with a disability.

[00:10:05] And then after that year, that organisation got some funding and I got a paid job there and I, I stayed there for another 18 months. And then I worked in a mental health hospital. I worked in youth suicide prevention. And that was for another 16 years. And then I went into a management career for about another 16, 17 years. And now, just in the last couple of years, I've circled back to doing some psychology practice with my own, psychology practice.

[00:10:38] So yeah, it's been a career which has stood me in good stead in many ways because there's so many transferable skills and what I learned as a psychologist was so valuable in my management career.

[00:10:52] Bronwyn: Amazing. Awesome. And I just wanted to pick up on something because I think, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Karen, you're a mentor to Courtney, or like how do you guys know each other?

[00:11:02] Karen: I employed Courtney at Vision

[00:11:04] Bronwyn: I see

[00:11:07] Karen: Yes, so we worked together for about 15 years.

[00:11:10] Bronwyn: Wow. That's awesome. And maybe I'll just ask, how important or is it important to have a community of other psychologists who may be low vision or blind?

[00:11:22] Courtney: It's very helpful. I found it very helpful, especially having Karen as a mentor straight out of the gate, basically. I got to see her do her thing, see how she approached working with different populations. Um, not necessarily in terms of providing counselling because, as she said, she was in a management role at that time. But, certainly just her professionalism helped me understand how I could carry my disability gracefully in the workplace.

[00:11:53] Karen: And there, there were not many psychologists that I knew that were blind. So it was, um, good when Courtney came along and we could bounce off each other as we still do today. Along the way now, I've met some other blind psychologists, but certainly in my early career I didn't know many other blind psychologists at all.

[00:12:14] Bronwyn: And was that isolating for you, Karen, or was it just kind of like, I'm used to it?

[00:12:18] Karen: I felt like it was just how it was. I was used to being the only blind person in many circumstances. So, I built up some psychology networks, but they weren't necessarily with other people that had a disability.

[00:12:34] Bronwyn: And what's it like now? Like, do you find that there are more folks, um, who are vision impaired who are coming into psychology or have, like, live with other disabilities? Like, is that something on your radar that you're noticing?

[00:12:46] Karen: I feel like that there are a few more people coming into psychology with disabilities now. Possibly we don't seek each other out as much as we might, and don't draw the insights and strengths from each other that we might, but I do feel like it is much more of a possible career choice now now than it used to be.

[00:13:07] Bronwyn: That's awesome. It does sound like with, uh, I guess, accessibility in terms of electronic materials, like, that sounds like a big plus. Yeah.

[00:13:15] Karen: Absolutely, it's a big plus. Even the ability to do online testing now, that was a real barrier prior to online testing, but now so many doors have opened as a result of that.

[00:13:30] Bronwyn: Awesome. And maybe I'll ask this question because this was of interest to a listener, who asked, like, about accessibility in psychology settings, like, as a psychologist, um, which can be an issue for many individuals living with disability. Um, is this something that you need to advocate for, or have you found that people are willing and able to put in things that you need to be able to do your work?

[00:13:56] Karen: Not always. People, you do need to learn to advocate for what you need. Other people don't often understand what you can or can't do. And so, you're always in a role of educating others about what you can or can't do, but what kind of accommodations might be able to be made to make that possible. So you're always an advocate, always an ambassador.

[00:14:19] And, um, so for me, trying to encourage people to be open minded, to, you know, think outside of the box is really important. And, um, often you're actually using your psychology skills to encourage people to think differently about what you can do as a psychologist.

[00:14:39] Courtney: Yeah, and I'd say that in order to be able to advocate, you've got to start as early as possible applying your competence so that you can build confidence and awareness of what your needs are in a workplace. So Karen sort of highlighted how work experience can be quite a big barrier. When you're going for a job, um, and we certainly know now that the earlier a family starts providing information to their child about career options and giving them the opportunity to take responsibility for chores and, helping in the community and things like that, the more likely that child or young person is to be able to advocate effectively for themselves. They know what they can do, they know what they need in order to be able to do it.

[00:15:31] So I would probably say that that's one of the biggest, it'd be one of the biggest recommendations I'd have for young people coming through now is don't just sit on your studies. Take them out into the world and use them in the way that, you know, I did at Lifeline and Karen highlighted that she did in her early career so that you have that applied knowhow, that you have the experience that you can lean on.

[00:15:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, because it does sound like, even in our discussion, you know, we've only been talking for a few minutes, but I feel that a theme I've picked up on is, needing to prove yourself to other people that you can do the work, which sounds very tiring. Um, I'm wondering if that's the case?

[00:16:14] Courtney: Yeah, you do. You have to prove yourself because people don't understand, um, blindness or low vision unless they've experienced it. It's a low incidence disability, so if they haven't gotten to know somebody who's blind, even if they've had sort of cursory experiences with people who are blind, that's just one experience with one person. Um, you're going to need to build up their awareness of the disability and their confidence in being able to respond to the disability in a way that's constructive from scratch.

[00:16:49] So part of that is not just being able to talk the talk, but walk the walk. They're going to ask, how do you use a computer? How do you get around by yourself? How do you manage your home? You know, these are all questions that people have about people who are blind that you not only need to, you know, talk about, but actually show in who you are in the professional way that you carry yourself.

[00:17:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, I guess I'm wondering about self care, like, it honestly just sounds like, you know, how Karen was saying earlier, like, you need to be that person... I guess it's constantly explaining or advocating and, and identifying and, uh, using psychology. It does sound very tiring. And I'm just wondering whether that adds another layer of exhaustion.

[00:17:33] Courtney: Absolutely. It's emotional labour, right? That, um, people who don't have a disability don't necessarily have to consider. Although, many of us have challenges and I, um, understand the concept of intersectionality where many challenges meet and create their own, their own specific ways that you need to educate the world around you based on your experience.

[00:17:57] But, yeah, it's, it's tiring and you do have to engage in active self care to be able to manage it. You have to choose your battles. You're often people's teachable moment and you have to be ready to be a good ambassador or you need to know how to withdraw from that situation to keep yourself safe sometimes.

[00:18:18] Bronwyn: Karen, what do you think?

[00:18:20] Karen: Absolutely. I think self care is really important and self care skills don't just happen, you really need to actively engage in learning them. And this isn't just about people who are psychologists, it's people with a disability who have to champion whatever it is they wish to do in the community.

[00:18:42] And, and so for me, it took actually quite a long time to learn what self care worked for me and that I actively needed to develop those skills. And, so I think it's important for people to develop those plans early in life and be experimenting with what works. It will change over time as you grow and change, but it needs to be, your self care strategies need to be a constant companion.

[00:19:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, um, I think the question that's coming to mind, I'm torn between asking it in two ways. So I'll ask it in two ways and then you can pick the way that you like the most. Um, which is, what do people get wrong about people who are low vision or blind? And what do you wish people knew about people who have a vision impairment?

[00:19:30] Courtney: Well, I think the things that I find somebody who has a disability is they Assume... which is a really tricky situation for you to be in. So if you're going for a job, you know, you're rocking up with all of the qualifications and experience, but people will still assume because all they see is the disability that they need to, overcompensate. They'll be nervous. And look, I understand in new territory, that's how we are. We're nervous. But where I've seen people handle disability that they're encountering for the first time gracefully, it's usually because they choose to see past it to the human being, to the person, and engage directly from one person to another.

[00:20:23] Bronwyn: That's really beautifully put, Courtney. Um, you know, I had, um, my brother who lives with cerebral palsy and an intellectual disability on the podcast a few months ago. And this is like that he spoke to that, that people do see him as incompetent and he's like, I can do this thing. And it like, it, it grinds my gears, like seeing people treat him like that. And I also see the opposite, which is what I was hearing you describing is like, when somebody treats you as a human, like, I just see my brother light up and it's like, gosh, why can't everybody do that?

[00:20:54] Courtney: And I suppose there's a couple of different ways of othering. There's the one where people assume incompetence, and then the other side of the coin where people assume that you're superhuman because you get out of bed in the morning, which is one of the things that Stella Young highlighted so well in her... in her, um, TED Talk. So, you know, either way, again, they're not seeing you as a person. They're seeing you as something other than what they are, which doesn't make for a constructive dialogue.

[00:21:29] Bronwyn: I love that TED talk. The Inspiration Porn TED talk is great. And Karen, could you, yeah, what do people get wrong?

[00:21:36] Karen: I think often, particularly if you happen to be with someone else, they'll be talking to that someone else, not you. And even when, and you probably see this with your brother, but even when I, I'm the one that's responding... and the person that I'm with might even be turning to look at me. The person that you're communicating with doesn't always take that hint.

[00:21:59] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:22:00] Karen: I think people often think that blind people have some sixth sense or something. They say, oh, you must be a good psychologist because you just know things. Oh, well, you know, I get my information the same way that other people get, get their information. I just need to nuance that. So it is that, that superhuman theme again, that you, you know, you're, you must be amazing to be able to do this.

[00:22:25] So that, that sense of always being put up on a pedestal and, um, you know, and what, so the things that you, that they think you do well, they seem to think, see that you do them perfectly.

[00:22:39] And, a whole lot of people, particularly in large social situations, don't know how to come up and engage with you. So you're often left quite isolated or they may be talking to you, but you don't know that they're addressing you because, you know, it's a large noisy environment. You don't know that they're looking at you. So again, they don't get the right signals from you and that just feeds that whole idea of the person doesn't know, the person with a disability doesn't know how to communicate.

[00:23:12] Bronwyn: Damn.

[00:23:13] Karen: Yeah. So to me, there's, you really have to be very confident in managing those situations and that takes time. I think it takes maturity and it takes practice.

[00:23:25] Bronwyn: Thank you both for those perspectives. I wanted to ask you a practical question, which again was brought up by a listener. So the listener asked, disclosing a disability on a resume or job applications can be a daunting decision. What factors did you consider when deciding whether to disclose your disability and how has it impacted your career trajectory?

[00:23:44] Karen: Uh, that's a very big question, isn't it?

[00:23:46] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:23:48] Karen: So, as you know, there's, you can disclose your disability when you write your application, when you get invited to an interview anywhere, anywhere along that chain. I, I think I've tried every single one of those, um, parts of the process to disclose my disability. Early on in my career I didn't, uh, disclose until I got invited to an interview. And then if I walked in with a cane, I thought it would be very awkward if I hadn't disclosed, and so I always did at that point. There was a time where I actually got a job and I didn't tell them until I got offered the job that I had a disability, but that was because there was, uh, the interviews were by phone.

[00:24:30] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:24:31] Karen: Um, now I'm right out front proud with it. Proud of it. And it's on my LinkedIn profile. I mention the value of diversity in every application I write and I've been doing it a lot lately because I'm, um, I'm on a few boards and I'm wanting to get on a couple more boards, so I have been writing lots of applications.

[00:24:52] I don't know, Bronwyn, what's the right thing to do. I think it's an individual choice. I, I think that, different people do it in different ways, according to their level of comfort. But I'm at the stage where I just prefer to be very overt about it, and highlight the, highlighting the value of diversity. I'm not sure that it always is in my favour, but, I've, I've decided that kind of, that's the stance that, uh, I want to take and, um, people, I guess, respond however they respond.

[00:25:29] So, you know, it's hard to know whether that's the reason you don't get things on, don't get, um, interviews or, or don't get the job or not. But, um, that's where I'm at with it.

[00:25:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, it sounds like a values led position and you're kind of like, look, you can like it or lump it. Yeah. Okay. Um, Courtney, like, what's your perspective and what's been your experience with disclosing disability on a resume or in a job application?

[00:25:58] Courtney: Yeah, very similar to Karen's, tried it at different stages. Um, I think these days I'm in the same position. So I identify as somebody with lived experience of blindness on my LinkedIn profile as well. And I would definitely have a preference for disability confident employers. I wouldn't necessarily want to be teaching my employer from scratch about disability unless they had a very, very open and enthusiastic attitude.

[00:26:27] That having been said, you know, if you start the conversation about disability right at the written application and somebody is interested in taking you through the process, then you can help them understand incrementally as you go through your application process. And hopefully by the time you get to the interview, you've built enough confidence, um, for them to be able to welcome you warmly to that conversation and for you guys to be able to have a very frank discussion, um, a practical discussion, and it becomes an opportunity for you to divest them of their concerns about employing you, as a person with a disability, if they had any to start with.

[00:27:11] So Um, you know, we talked a little bit about the challenges of, um, having a disability in the community where, um, you know, things aren't necessarily set up for you. And so you're having to think ahead and, um, have all of the strategies or the workarounds ready if things don't go according to plan. And I think your workplace needs to be a place where you're welcome, and you're appreciated and you're able to be effective and efficient and make a really solid contribution to your team and to your organisation.

[00:27:49] And, having a disability confident employer is key to that. If you don't have somebody who, who's prepared to support you, then it just adds this extra grind to life that, yeah, can be very, very, um, challenging to keep working through. If you don't have accessible systems, if people don't understand basic things like pushing their chairs in so you're not tripping over them every five seconds, you know. So yeah, I'm 100 percent behind disclosing earlier in the piece, but as Karen said, that'll knock a lot of potential employers out of the running straight away. People will just put you in the too hard basket.

[00:28:36] Bronwyn: um, it sounds really challenging, like, I guess for aspiring psychologists, would you recommend, I guess, chatting with a colleague and I guess seeking advice and listening to themselves and I guess they got feelings of how they want to handle the situation or something else?

[00:28:51] Courtney: Yeah, as Karen said, it's a personal decision. You have to weigh the pros and cons of disclosing at each stage.

[00:28:59] Bronwyn: That makes sense. Um, and it's, it's just, yeah, saddening to hear that, yeah, now there are still employers who will put you in the too hard basket.

[00:29:07] Karen: That's, that's right. I think it's important to anticipate some of the questions that you're going to get if, if people are interested in exploring your disability more. So, as someone who is blind, I would get questions as a psychologist, going for psychology positions like, uh, so, you know, so much of what the client does is non verbal. How would you be able to know anything about that?

[00:29:34] And so having those answers ready, you're talking about, well actually you can hear lots from tone of voice, you can hear lots from the pace of speech, the breaks in speech, the, the way people project or don't project their voice. You can hear when someone has their hands over their face or their head down from where their voice is coming from.

[00:29:55] And I didn't pretend that there would be things, I mean there would be some things I would miss. But most of the time I would get, you know, more than enough to be able to make my assessments or carry on the session as I needed to. And in fact there have been plenty occasions, particularly when you're dealing with people with quite significant trauma, where the fact that you'll never know that person if you came across them, you won't see them across the street or anywhere else... their anonymity, they really, really valued that.

[00:30:31] Bronwyn: Oh cool. Yeah, is there anything you wanted to add to that, Courtney?

[00:30:34] Courtney: I just think, you know, we've talked a lot about the challenges whilst it is very challenging, and I really appreciate you acknowledging that too, Bronwyn, you're very empathetic around it. Obviously, you know, I'm 16 years down the track. Karen's, you know, 30 years You can still, yeah, you can still get the job done. You can still enter the workplace. You can still have a very, very fruitful career.

[00:30:59] And if anything, I feel like our ability to overcome our challenges becomes our superpower in our psychology practice because it humanizes us as soon as somebody walks through the door to work with us. It lets them know straight away that we're somebody who understands the territory of challenge, and that we've, obviously got some strategies up our sleeve to manage challenges, big ones.

[00:31:30] And I think, you know, like we said, your self care has to be deliberate. Your, your character development has to be deliberate. Your, practical coping has to be deliberate. And therefore, you accumulate this very large library of strategies that you use in your own life that you can also stand behind, you know, evidence based strategies in your practice in counselling or however you practice the profession of psychology, in my case at the moment as a, as a manager, in supporting my team members to be, you know, productive and to manage any, uh, developments that are uncomfortable in their lives as well.

[00:32:15] Bronwyn: No, thanks for bringing that up, Courtney. And yeah, I would like to turn the conversation maybe to like the strengths that you do bring to the profession and just as a, as a psychologist in general, like you say, you're very experienced and you've been working for a very, um, a lengthy time, um, and getting your jobs done. Yeah, like Karen, maybe what are some strengths you see in yourself?

[00:32:34] Karen: I think I'm a very good listener. Uh, I don't get distracted by what's happening around me, particularly, uh, as some, as other people with sight can do. And so I am a, I am a good listener. I'm really able to, uh, be with the person on their journey. I am, you know, able to kind of really, um, focus on that, therapeutic milieu with the person and stay with them and stay, particularly like staying the course when sometimes it can be a bit, a bit of a long course.

[00:33:12] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:33:12] Karen: As you've, as I've had a bit of a diverse career, then I've got lots of parts of that career to draw on, uh, to bring to any situation. And, um, so I think, you know, experience in life has certainly enabled me to, build my toolkit and be able to find within that toolkit what works for me. And so I, you know, over time I have explored with a few different modalities and, you know, find out what best suits the situation at any given time.

[00:33:53] Bronwyn: Yeah, awesome. Um, Courtney, I know you shared a few of your strengths beforehand, but was there anything that you wanted to add?

[00:33:58] Courtney: I think one of the words that Karen used earlier in our conversation was adapting or being adaptable, and if I was going to boil that down even more, just being a good learner, um, is something that I'm, really, proud of myself for being a good learner. Somebody who tries and sometimes fails and learns from the experience and goes on to, you know, adapt, and, um, and, and, you know, do things better next time.

[00:34:28] I think some of the things that we've talked about so far in regard to planning ahead and, um, risk management, really, as somebody who has a disability, you've got to anticipate those barriers and those pitfalls ahead. I'm a prudent person. Um, I can do that for myself and I can also do that for others.

[00:34:48] Bronwyn: I mean, those sound like excellent management skills as well.

[00:34:50] Courtney: Yeah. And leadership too, like further down the track, you know, once you've learned all of this stuff yourself, turning around to support other people, to acquire their skills. So mentoring and coaching and leading and, sense of humor is something that I value, in myself and in others as well, because I think the ability to play, in a, particularly in times of trouble, to be able to see the bright side or to be able to engage in sometimes dark humour for therapeutic outcomes, um, can be really, important.

[00:35:25] Bronwyn: Totally. I love me some play. It just puts your brain in a different space and you can see different things and it's, yeah, it's good to have a sense of humor, isn't it?

[00:35:34] For aspiring psychologists or early career psychologists who are living with a disability, maybe a vision disability, maybe something else, what advice would you offer to help them navigate their journey and, and maybe like remember, I guess, the good things about them?

[00:35:50] Karen: I think it's important for them to remember what got them interested in the area to start with, because there's generally some, you know, passion there that drives them along, along the road. And so to, be able to get in touch with that passion, uh, to seek out others who may have been there before you and, and listen, and particularly the wisdom that others might have that sometimes just little things that that might say can resonate so strongly that it actually does impact on your thinking, uh, for time to come.

[00:36:30] And build yourself networks, because different networks are very important at different stages of your career, and in different aspects of your career. And so, for me, it's not just about finding others, other psychologists with a disability, it might be finding other people who have a particular interest in an area of psychology that you have, building your networks of people to talk to, spread your wings because there's so many transferable skills in psychology. You can be so adaptable that spreading your wings and investigating other horizons is, is really important.

[00:37:14] And, have a plan, have a career plan, may not end up working out the way you think it will, but having a number of, um, aspects to that plan that will get you to the place that you want to be. So, you know, while some very positive things happen due to chance and never, never knock those back, a planned approach will always get you to your destination eventually.

[00:37:42] Bronwyn: Nice. Very cool. Thank you. And Courtney, advice you might give to psychologists with disability?

[00:37:49] Courtney: Yep, so I definitely endorse psychology as a great profession for somebody with a vision impairment in particular. I think it does lend itself to lots of different applications. You can be in counselling, you can be in forensics, you can be in management. I think that you need to leverage your strengths. So find out what your strengths are and even consider your weaknesses and turn them into strengths if you can.

[00:38:17] I think continue to put yourself out there, um, throughout your career and be aware of opportunities that might be within arm's reach and, and go for it and see where it takes you. it's been, um, a great thing for me to do throughout my career because I started at Vision Australia about 16 years ago and, um, there's been lots of organizational changes that have led to changes in my role, but there's also been opportunities that have come up that I've put my hand up for, and I feel like, really, over the last 16 years, I've been on rotation, I haven't been in the same job for more than three years, and I've just accumulated experience across the organization, like a snowball effect as a result of that. So, I think, you know, definitely build your skills, but also go broad.

[00:39:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, awesome. And are there any specific resources or support networks, that you've found particularly helpful in your career that might be helpful to other psychs who have a vision disability?

[00:39:23] Courtney: Yeah, so obviously, as somebody with a vision impairment, uh, you're going to need either a screen magnification or a screen reader and technology skills are absolutely key to being able to not only use a computer, but use it, you know, efficiently, you've got to be able to do things at a comparable speed to sighted folks. So, understanding all of your keystrokes is really important. That's a really, really practical skill that I see a lot of young people coming through now. Some people are really, really great at it and some young people neglect it and it's something that you've got to develop at some point, so it might as well be early.

[00:40:07] Um, your network of, of colleagues, professionals who are blind or who have low vision is really important. Your network of other psychologists, regardless of whether or not they have a disability, is really important. When you get into the workplace, developing your relationships with your colleagues, um, I have the most amazing, relationships with my colleagues, work friendships, that sustain me in the workplace and make my work life really joyful.

[00:40:35] I think support organisations like Vision Australia, which is the one that I work for, but Blind Citizens Australia as well, are really, really important because they help you understand where you sit in terms of systemic advocacy, what we're working on as a group of Australians together, um, to make the world a better place for everyone.

[00:40:57] Um, seeing our dog, for me, was really important. Having a dog guide, um, but also a cane, um, mobility, being able to get around independently, um, is really important as well.

[00:41:10] Bronwyn: Karen, any specific resources, support networks that have helped you that you would recommend?

[00:41:15] Karen: I think it's important that everybody understands that the government has a program called Job Access, so that when you do get a job, you can have an assessment and be assessed for the kind of equipment that's going to best suit you, and then, and that can be funded. So many people don't know that, but it's certainly something that's a huge enabler in the workplace.

[00:41:38] I think, um, Courtney mentioned Blind Citizens Australia. But these things are really particularly important when there's things that you need to advocate for in your own way. So, a lot of the software that psychologists have to use, particularly in private practice, isn't particularly accessible. So, being able to get the support of somewhere like Blind Citizens Australia to, advocate to software developers about the importance of accessibility.

[00:42:08] And then looking for groups, not only of psychologists, but others who might be trying to run their own business, where you can leverage some of the skills that they've used as blind people to do that. Because, you know, there's, um, as you'd be aware, Bronwyn, there's other parts to business that you need be able to access, um, you know, accounting, software, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:42:36] So, I think, um, for me, it's, it's absolutely being able to understand where you can go for what you need. Do the research to understand what you need and where you can go for help. And I, I think networks do get you everywhere. It's a skill that a lot of people don't feel comfortable with, but it's absolutely a skill that is so important and I think one that you need to hone throughout your life.

[00:43:10] And, and just being, being visible in the world of psychology, being aware, you know, some of the conferences, um, trying to... trying to, um, you know, present papers or just trying to do what you can to be as visible as you can be, because, you know, we, we want to promote that people with a disability can be psychologists too. And, you know, we absolutely want to give each other you know, strength to keep going when times are tough, because there's lots of joy that can be, um, had in this profession.

[00:43:49] Bronwyn: Mm. Awesome. And last question for both of you is, I really love it when experienced psychs come on the podcast because the thing with early career psychs is that they do have a lot of anxiety about how am I going to stay in this profession? Because I think quite early on, it's just so overwhelming, there's so much to learn. There is so to do. Um, confidence can take a real dive and you just feel like, what am I doing? Like, am I being effective? That kind of thing.

[00:44:14] Um, so I just wanted to hear from both of you, like, What's keeping you going in this profession and where do you see yourself, like, what are you looking forward to in the future? So what's, what's keeping you in and what's, what's keeping you going, I guess?

[00:44:27] Courtney: Oh, that's such a tough question. keeps me going? I really like making myself useful. I really like having a challenge that I can be working on and that's, making me utilize all of my skill sets and acquire new ones. I really appreciate, like my managers have always been very, very good at throwing me at, um, a problem to address it in a constructive way. And I find that, makes my work life really juicy. So that's what keeps me here.

[00:45:05] People, calling upon me to assist them with, um, solving problems or to facilitate their expertise in their field. I really love being a leader of a really high performing team now. So, just being able to watch the guys work and do my part to make their lives a little bit easier so they can make other people's lives, of our clients a little bit easier. Yeah, I, I like being useful.

[00:45:34] Bronwyn: Great way of putting it. And I'm, I'm glad that you are putting these positions where it's like you feel like you get to use all these great parts of you. Karen, what's keeping you going? What are you looking forward to?

[00:45:44] Karen: I love the diversity of psychology and I think I have been able to experience the diversity that it's given me. There's no two days that are the same, even when you think that you're just talking to one person after another. Um, there's, everyone's an individual, everyone has a story. I've been able to use my psychology knowledge to manage large teams to, you know, work through change management processes to, to motivate people to lead. I've been able to work with young people, people who've recently lost their jobs, people who have, older people going through life change, people who are adjusting to disability.

[00:46:33] Diversity of what I've been able to do is endless and that's what keeps me going. And I think there's probably a whole lot of other things that I haven't yet discovered about what psychology can lead me to.

[00:46:49] Bronwyn: Oh, that's really exciting. Yeah, I think that will really help a lot of listeners. They're just like, what is there? Um, and so yeah, that's really nice to hear.

[00:46:57] Karen and Courtney, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It has been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you, and I'm so glad that we were able to connect and get your insights and hear everything.

[00:47:08] Courtney: Thanks very much for having us, Bronwyn.

[00:47:10] Bronwyn: My pleasure. And is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you want to make sure that listeners know about? Yeah.

[00:47:17] Karen: Not that I can think of at the moment. I think we've kind of had a pretty wide ranging discussion and I hope people can take something from and, um, when the, when you, when you're feeling lost, there's plenty of, uh, people out there to help you find the way again.

[00:47:32] Bronwyn: Lovely. Courtney, anything?

[00:47:34] Courtney: Oh, that's so beautiful, Karen. I think we should end on that.

[00:47:37] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. Yeah, that sounds awesome.

[00:47:39] Well, listeners, thank you so much for listening. I do hope that you got a lot out of today. I know I did. And if you want to make sure that other people can hear what you've heard, then make sure to put the podcast in their ears. It's the best way to get it out there.

[00:47:53] Thanks again for listening. Take it easy and catch you next time. Bye.