Studying internationally, working with gender diverse people, personalised self-care (with Fabian Friedrich)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins. And today we have a listener story, which I am so excited about.

In a listener story episode, we hear from one early career psychologist about their journey towards registration, the learnings they picked up along the way and where they're headed in the future. There's lots of deviations in these conversations and we get to hear what it's really like. So it's, it's a real life relatable conversation and here to share their story with us is Fabian Friedrich. I tried!

[00:00:40] Fabian: Awesome pronunciation! That was really good.

[00:00:44] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:00:45] Fabian: Very good.

[00:00:46] Bronwyn: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Fabian, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:00:54] Fabian: Thanks for the wonderful introduction. I feel very welcome, so thank you very much. So, my name is Fabian Friedrich, so you did very well with that pronunciation earlier. Fabulous job and my non psychology passion would probably be wellbeing walks. And let me explain what well being walks are. So I coined the term, yes, I coined the term during the COVID pandemic when I just realized that movement obviously was very limited and I Just really had this immense longing for catch ups and socializing, but it was just not feasible indoors.

And you just couldn't go anywhere really. So the only possible solution to me was just to go on walks with my close friends. And what I then have established is that wellbeing walks, we would just catch up, get a takeaway coffee and just have a really nice conversation while walking. It just really was so, so good for my mental health, and I just kept it going and I still go for about three well being walks with my friends per week.

[00:02:07] Bronwyn: Do you, do you rotate between your friends or is it the same ones?

[00:02:10] Fabian: I I do, I do, and I quite often actually go On well being walks with friends who don't want to go on well being walks with me And it has just become a running joke with my my friends. Because they keep telling me that they just can't do something in quotation marks normal anymore with me because I just always want to go for wellbeing walks when what they want to do is just hang out at a pub I reckon.

[00:02:38] Bronwyn: I like how you've added on wellbeing to the walk as well because then you would be like, but it's for your wellbeing, and they'd be like... "oh yeah".

[00:02:47] Fabian: They can't get out of it anymore and they they are actually really quite committed so they don't want to admit it but they love the well being walk routine with me.

Ha

[00:02:57] Bronwyn: Are you kind of just.

[00:02:58] Fabian: Ha, yes!

Oh, it's wishful thinking, yes. But it has become my reality, for sure.

[00:03:05] Bronwyn: That is so cool. Gosh, I love that. That is awesome. It's so nice to have alternative ways of connecting with friends other than like, you know, the very Aussie way is like, yeah, we'll go grab a drink at the pub.

[00:03:16] Fabian: Yeah. And I, I don't mind drinks at a pub, and I really love those stubby holders, which literally don't exist in Germany. So, I'm just obsessed with stubby holders that are oddly branded in Australia. Yeah. So, it's not mutually exclusive, I, I guess. So you can still, you can like well being walks and still like a drink at a pub. And sometimes our wellbeing walks end at a pub.

[00:03:42] Bronwyn: Oh, I see. And you mentioned off air that you have more than one passion outside of psychology.

[00:03:47] Fabian: Yes, so one of my other passions really is fashion and I, I, I just love dressing up. I love being fashionable and I genuinely think that there's something to be said about the connection between the way we dress and the way we feel. So, um, it's not appropriate for, for all my clients, but sometimes I like to incorporate that into my therapy even to just think about how my clients could actually dress a little bit differently or, or what they could actually wear given how they feel. So the psychology of fashion, it's just so fascinating, I think.

[00:04:26] Bronwyn: Yes, it is, absolutely. Was there another passion that you wanted to tell us about?

[00:04:31] Fabian: My other passion would definitely be RuPaul's Drag Race in general. I'm obsessed with that show. One of my favorite things to do is to just have a home cooked meal at home and watch an episode of RuPaul's with my hubby.

[00:04:48] Bronwyn: Beautiful. That is a great passion to have. I'm so glad that you have lots of passions outside of psychology, but let's move our attention then to psychology, to your journey, because listeners might be able to tell from your beautiful German accent that perhaps Germany is a place for you where you started out in psychology?

[00:05:05] Fabian: I definitely did. So my, my, my psychology journey actually started back in 2010, which I can't believe it's 14 years ago, which is... I know 2010 is 14 years ago. Back then I decided to enroll in a Bachelor of Psychology at the beautiful University of Dusseldorf. And in Dusseldorf, one of the wonderful professors there has developed the G Power calculator and G Power just is a tool that many researchers would know to just estimate the power needed and the sample size needed for a scientific study. And I just love the fact that around the world, researchers are using a tool that was developed at the University of Dusseldorf.

[00:05:52] Bronwyn: No, it's so cool, because you told me about that before we met, and I used Gpower for my PhD, and I was like, oh wow, it's the university that made Gpower!

[00:06:02] Fabian: There we go, right? The world is a village after all.

[00:06:06] Bronwyn: Totally. So you started out your psychology journey in 2010, um, in Dusseldorf, Yes. So, then I decided that I just wanted to broaden my horizon as the people in the young 20s quite often want to do. And then I was contemplating where I would actually like to study overseas. And then I was tossing up between the US and Canada and Great Britain and Australia. And then for some reason, Australia felt like the right choice, so I picked Australia to do a semester abroad.

[00:06:43] Fabian: And then, the second decision that I needed to make was what city to pick. And then, interestingly enough, I picked Adelaide. And, yeah, people are just very surprised that I picked Adelaide.

[00:06:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'm surprised, people don't usually pick Adelaide no offense to Adelaide listeners but they usually just pick Melbourne or Sydney, or Queensland as a third.

[00:07:09] Fabian: Exactly. So there I was studying in Adelaide, living, living at the beach, really having a good time. And then at some point I met my, my now husband. So I met him in 2012, and then it all fell in place essentially, so I fell in love with Australia. I, up to this day, I adore the Australian culture. I think Australians just have a really nice way about them. I think Australians are super funny, including my husband. He's hilarious. Even though I wouldn't tell him personally, but just between you and me my husband is incredibly funny. Yes. Thank you very much. And we just have to keep this podcast a secret so that he will never find out about my true opinion of him.

Yeah, so I, so I had a really good time in adelaide in 2012 But then I needed to return to germany to just finish my my degree then I enrolled into the master's program back in Germany as well. And, and then I studied in Finland in 2015, actually. Like, I did another semester abroad. And yeah, gorgeous country. Finland is just so beautiful.

So I, I did my master's in germany technically and then I just did one semester in Finland And there was the semester when I was supposed to write my Master's thesis anyway so I was fairly flexible and then I just had sufficient time to hunt down the northern lights. And the northern lights are just so gorgeous. Yes, it was, it was amazing.

And then in 2016, I finished my master's degree and, and during that time, I actually had a long distance relationship with my now husband. So he, he was living with me for one year back in Germany, but then he needed to move back to Australia. And, then we just really had to make this hard choice around whether he should move to Germany long term or whether I should come to Australia. And then we just decided that it would probably be the best idea for me to move to Australia. I reckon you could say that we did some collaborative problem solving. Yeah.

And then, I just really thought I had a passion for HR back then, so human resources I thought was my forte. And then I worked in human resources for quite some time, and then I realized that it wasn't fulfilling to me personally. It, it's still a very interesting area, but I then later on actually realized that I wanted to become a psychologist, but it just took me, took me. six or so years of just really trying different roles and then just really being being certain that that psychology was what I wanted to pursue long term and then I enrolled in a Master of Clinical Psychology back in 2023 at the Australian Catholic University.

[00:10:21] Bronwyn: Wow. And when you say, like, you did HR and you're just like, look, it wasn't personally fulfilling for me... like, what did, what were you hoping to get out of psychology? Like, what was your idea of a psychologist that would be fulfilling for you?

[00:10:33] Fabian: Yeah, so, so I, I, I essentially studied the degrees in Germany, like the Bachelor's and the Master's out of genuine curiosity for the human brain and psychology in general, but I didn't really think that I wanted to be a therapist. So I always thought that I wanted to be some sort of organizational psychologist and, and wear a suit all day. As I was saying earlier, I'm really into fashion. And back then, I really thought that I looked dashing in a nice suit with a tie.

[00:11:07] Bronwyn: Sure you do.

[00:11:09] Fabian: I, I nothing has changed about my perception there. I still think I look dashing in a suit and a nice tie, but it's just not something that I see myself doing to reach professional fulfillment anymore.

And this just really signifies, I think, that a young person's brain just really is not, not fully developed. until the age of 25, I reckon. So I just had a lot of maturing to do and all those preconceived notions around what I thought I wanted to do professionally, I just needed to discard over time, which just came with this trial and error process, like me really going through quite a lot of different roles and then really realizing along the way what components I actually resonated with and what I really didn't like.

And then the wonderful epiphany just really occurred back in 2022 when I then went through this process where I thought about all my professional roles. And then I just really realized that, that a career as a psychologist working with clients and in mental health would just really tick all the boxes.

[00:12:26] Bronwyn: Ah, wonderful. And so, could you let us know, with your journey to becoming a psychologist, what were the best things and then what were the most challenging things?

[00:12:36] Fabian: Yeah, so are we talking about the masters of clinical psychology?

[00:12:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. but you could also comment about your bachelor's or the other study that you did. Yeah, I'm curious, like, the whole pathway, like, what was, what was most challenging and what was, what was most rewarding?

[00:12:52] Fabian: Yeah. Yes, so the the most rewarding part about becoming a psychologist I genuinely think is to just develop incredible knowledge, develop marvelous skills around how to interact with other people, and how to actually support other people, and before I started the Master of Clinical Psychology, I actually didn't have a very solid understanding of all those different components that make a good psychologist and it ranges from microcounseling skills, unconditional positive regard, like showing empathy, but then also, you know, technical skills that you, you just have to know around psychological interventions.

And there's just a lot that comes together when you are a psychologist. And I think that just has been one of the most rewarding components to just, to just realize that you are able to hold space for your client and use all those skills to actually then help your clients.

[00:14:01] Bronwyn: Wow, you said that really beautifully because that really resonates with me as well because I feel like I didn't really know the full scope of what a psychologist did before I became a psychologist. Like I remember preparing for my interview for my master's course, and I remember reading stuff and it was like, Say you want to focus on formulations. And I didn't know what a formulation was. And so like in my interview, I was like, I'm really interested in working and helping people and, and using formulations. And I was like, nailed it.

But yeah, but you're so right. There's so, it's so wonderful learning about these, these very nuanced skills and micro counseling and how you empathize and actively listen with people and how you help them with, with, um, psychological knowledge. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:45] Fabian: And it's just very powerful to just develop the self knowledge around yourself that you can actually be the person who combines all those different aspects and facets and skills that What a good psychologist actually is

[00:15:02] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm so glad you found that really rewarding. And what would you say were some of the challenges of study?

[00:15:09] Fabian: So there are unfortunately quite a lot of challenges hey as you can probably relate to! Yes, so it obviously starts with the interview process of getting admitted to the clinical master program. So I thought that was a fairly daunting process. It's it actually involves applying for... You quite often numerous universities then going to numerous interviews and possibly being rejected for quite a few, and then just never know whether you actually will get a spot in one of the master programs. So that definitely is the first challenge.

Then the second challenge I think was around like starting the masters. Not really now what to expect. Always. feeling uncertain around whether you really are cut out to be a psychologist yourself. And I think this, this phenomenon of imposter syndrome just really kicked in early, I think.

So right now, I'm still combating imposter syndrome, but it really started back when I was studying, even back in Germany, like never being too certain whether you really are made for it. And, and I I think that was a very big challenge to overcome and then just just acknowledge that the imposter syndrome was just a part of it all and then just developing a more friendly relationship with the imposter syndrome and doubting oneself and just letting it be there, being curious about what the imposter syndrome wanted to tell you and then not being too deterred by it.

[00:16:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, but was it really hard for you? Like, cause some people their imposter syndrome, it's like, you know, every day they're like, "Oh gosh, I'm a bad therapist. I'm going to get found out. They're going to know that I'm not meant to be here". Like, what was that like for you?

[00:17:02] Fabian: I, I, I think for me it might be a rather mild version of it, but it still creeps up sometimes. So I, I, I, I wouldn't get into this, uh, this stage where I would really doubt my clinical abilities or whether I would, I would then scrutinize myself too much, but I. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Some people would say that I'm overconfident. So, once again, it's probably another dialectic to embrace. Like, some self critical reflection, but then also being confident. And then the meeting somewhere in the middle.

[00:17:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, because you want to, you want to, be confident, but you also want to be self aware. You don't want to

[00:17:44] Fabian: Exactly!

[00:17:45] Bronwyn: that you walk out and be like, nailed it, but your client is like sobbing in a corner sort of thing. You know? Yeah.

[00:17:50] Fabian: Yes, I do think that I'm actually striking the right balance and I, I think I've developed this, this approach where I can actually scrutinize myself. I can be reflective, I can be honest with myself, but at the same time, I can also be very kind and gentle with myself, which I, I really think is. It's quite a skill. It took me so long to actually develop that, that ability to just really be kind to myself and then, yeah, not, not feed in too much to that inner critical voice.

[00:18:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, lovely. And I'm just wondering, like, was it a challenge for you starting out as a psychologist, like new country, like you'd been in Australia for a few years, but still working as a psychologist with, um, you know, Australian folks or folks who may have come from other countries. What was that like for you?

[00:18:41] Fabian: It was, it was a challenge and I still think sometimes there is a bit of a language barrier where I try to actually use, like, German expressions and then I translate them into English and then there's awkward silence. Because no one knows what I just tried to convey. So that, that always is a bit of a challenge.

But I do think that that actually is quite an endearing element after, after all. It took me a while to really acknowledge that people actually like those moments where it just gets a little bit awkward. But, but it's like a, like a, like a, like a really positive kind of awkwardness.

Yeah, like, and, and I, I think, I think when it comes to, to psychology in general, you, you just definitely have to have a good command of the English language. You obviously have to be fluent. To be fair, I've had a lot of practice speaking English. So in Germany, you learn English at high school. Since the age of eight or so I've been practicing English. So I reckon English was never really an issue I think I think the cultural nuances might actually be the more tricky thing for for psychologists from another country because they are they are just surprisingly... there's just a surprisingly large number of cultural differences, I think, even between Germany and Australia, where you would usually think the two countries are first world countries, obviously. They're both Western industrial countries. They're very high living standards, but the, the mannerisms, the culture, the way of being is still quite different in both countries. And it just really, really is interesting to just think about those, those differences.

[00:20:40] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it is really interesting. Like, as you were talking, I was just reflecting on , how would I be if I did like psychotherapy in Germany? And , I would just bring these, it's like such a stunted because I learned music growing up. I'd be like Germany, Wagner. That's like...

[00:20:54] Fabian: Yes!

[00:20:55] Bronwyn: That's like my basis for like Germany.

[00:21:00] Fabian: Then you would talk about Wagner with everyone you encounter in germany!

Yes! Yes! So, and, and, I, I just I just really think there are challenges of being a migrant or an expat or whatever you want to call me right now. So one of the one of the most remarkable realizations that I've had since moving to Australia in 2017 has been that this concept of linguistic relativity really is quite influential in my personal life at least. And in terms of linguistic relativity, it's, it's a phenomenon that I actually investigated as part of one of my... my theses in Germany. So I did a, I did a bachelor of philosophy and ancient cultures as well, besides my Bachelor of Psychology. And I actually investigated this concept of linguistic relativity, which is a term coined by Lera Boroditsky. And Lera Boroditsky actually said that the way we speak influences the way we think. And I think that that is just a very powerful idea.

And it just, it's just fascinating to then possibly think about certain implications of that theory of linguistic relativity around concepts that don't exist in German language. So, I, I think the word serendipity, for instance, in English, it's just such a beautiful word and it describes such a beautiful concept, but we don't have a word for it in German. We can, we can say it if we wanted to, but it would sound very clunky and quite cumbersome. And I don't think people really would refer to this kind of random way of finding something very beautiful, which serendipity actually beautifully and encompasses.

And that's what I sometimes think is one of the interesting things about living in another country, that you just realize that to some extent you start thinking differently due to the language that you then speak on a daily basis. And that might actually have some implications on therapy as well. I don't know. We probably need to do some research into it, but it would be a very interesting question.

[00:23:33] Bronwyn: No, it's interesting. I mean, like, because in therapy, we speak with people most of the time, so if speaking influences how you think, it's really remarkable that we can, perhaps, like, clients can speak in a different way, and then that can influence their thoughts and maybe how they're coping with life situations. Like, is there any way that you bring linguistic relativity into your therapy work?

[00:23:57] Fabian: Probably more indirectly. So I, I, I wish I had found like a more conscious way of applying it. So far, it's just a theory that is operating somewhere in the background, I guess.

[00:24:10] Bronwyn: And just curious, is there any German things which you've noticed that Australians don't have like a linguistic concept for?

[00:24:17] Fabian: So they are the typical ones, I guess. Like, like, Schadensfreude, which is like, like, like feeling this, uh, this kind of joy when something bad happens to another person. I think I think it's hilarious when someone falls off their bike, for instance.

[00:24:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:38] Fabian: I'm being a bit facetious here. Like, another one is Flugschirm, which I actually think is a very interesting one, which refers to, like, the shame of flying or, like, air travel, because air travel just comes with a lot of emissions, and German has, like, a word for it, like, really feeling guilty about traveling, especially via plane.

[00:25:03] Bronwyn: It's so amazing, like, these different concepts, which, like, your brain just, it's like, I know of that shame, I know of not have a word for it. So, I love it.

[00:25:12] Fabian: Exactly. And yeah, and then one of the words that actually has been introduced into the English vocabulary in the past 20 years, I suppose, is like angst or angst, as you would say in, in German, like this, this feeling of anxiety, but it's more similar to like terror even. So that might actually also be an interesting example of where linguistic relativity really might be relevant in the therapeutic context.

[00:25:40] Bronwyn: No, I, because you know, we're constantly like clients describe so many things to us about their experiences of life, and I feel like sometimes I will have sessions where it's like we're trying to work out the right word to describe their experience. And I'll, and I'll be like, fear, anxiety, terror, shame, and nah, nah, nah, nah. And then we'll hit on the right word. And it's like, yes, it's that.

[00:26:02] Fabian: Then you're like, Flugschirm?

[00:26:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. I have add that in. Flugschirm? Yeah.

[00:26:06] Fabian: Try it.

[00:26:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'll try it.

No, that's so cool. And just curious, do you provide therapy also in German?

[00:26:14] Fabian: Oh, I wish. But I have difficulties recruiting German clients, unfortunately. I really wish I would actually gain some experience practicing in German. I've never done therapy in German.

[00:26:28] Bronwyn: What a shame.

[00:26:28] Fabian: Yes, yeah, so I perhaps just need to advertise it more widely,

[00:26:35] Bronwyn: Yeah, listeners, if you're, if German folks who, yeah, Fabian's your, Fabian's your person.

[00:26:40] Fabian: Yes, and we can make a whole session about Flugschirm if you want to.

[00:26:44] Bronwyn: Oh, wow. That'd be so cool.

Okay. So Fabian, was there any other challenges that you wanted to tell listeners about in your journey to gaining registration?

[00:26:55] Fabian: I think. I think one of the massive challenges was the practical experience. So, both

my Bachelor and Master degree in, in Germany were actually very theoretical and they didn't teach me anything around how to actually work as a psychologist or a therapist. So, I actually needed to learn all the skills newly.

So you would think that if you do a Master's program in germany, you would actually be equipped with those practical skills, but as I said very theoretical program back in Germany and then how it works in Germany is that you finish the master's and then you actually have some sort of traineeship that you would then add on. And here in Australia is just an integrated Master's program with those placements. So in Germany you would essentially then do one or two or even three years of like, placement after the Masters.

Yeah. So I hadn't done that, so to me, it was just very scary to start working therapeutically because I just didn't know what to expect. I knew that I had, very solid social skills. I knew that I had empathy. I knew that the building blocks probably were there, but I didn't quite know how to combine all those building blocks and I just really didn't know what to expect and what it would be like to actually be in a room with the client just one on one.

And yeah, there were just so many unknown variables I think when it came to those practical experiences and that's why I really think it can be very scary to start one's first placement.

[00:28:40] Bronwyn: Yeah. And how did you manage those anxieties? So when you first started out, yeah, how did you manage being in the room with somebody for 50 minutes and did that just come with experience or did you help yourself in different

[00:28:54] Fabian: Yes, I, I, I think that's where it is just really helpful that from an early, from an early age onwards, I actually have been working on myself. I've got a lot of personal therapy experience and I already knew a fair bit about exposure therapy and how how this curve of anxiety works and that you just habituate to anxiety and quite often you just have to really face the scary experiences.

And I I think this this knowledge you around this habituation just really helped me. I just knew there was no way around it and then I just threw myself into the deep end. And I have to say that my, my placement supervisor back at the gender center where I did my very first practical experience was just wonderful. He still is wonderful and he's currently still my boss actually in the private practice that I'm working at.

So, there was just this full circle moment where I did my placement at the gender center, gaining clinical experience working with gender diverse people, supporting them on their gender journey, being supervised by my supervisor back then, really learning a lot from him. And then I started out at his private practice in Newtown in Sydney, and that's where I'm still working now that I'm fully registered.

[00:30:26] Bronwyn: Yeah. Thank you so much for mentioning that you've done a lot of personal therapy. I think it's just so important for listeners to hear it's such a great way to know what it's like to be in the hot seat, that awareness of yourself, what you're bringing to sessions, because sometimes clients can activate stuff in us and we're like, where the hell is this confusing feeling come

[00:30:42] Fabian: I fully agree. I agree. And is it true that there are some countries where personal therapy is actually a prerequisite of

[00:30:50] Bronwyn: It is.

[00:30:50] Fabian: ...psychologist? Yeah, that's what...

[00:30:52] Bronwyn: ...European countries that it is required. Yeah. And I know in some US programs as well, it is required because I know a few people studying there and then they have to get it.

[00:31:01] Fabian: That's what I thought. Would be quite important, I think, to perhaps consider in Australia as well, right?

[00:31:07] Bronwyn: I think think it would be. I think it'd be great. Youlearnearned so much from being in

[00:31:12] Fabian: I agree. Especially around transference and countertransference.

[00:31:14] Bronwyn: Yes. Yep. Totally. Absolutely. And it sounds like you've had a really supportive supervisor, now boss, as well that can help you and it sounds like you felt comfortable bringing up, um, questions and concerns you had.

[00:31:29] Fabian: Definitely. And he really is so knowledgeable. I really learned a lot from him around gender affirming counseling and treatment. And he was just also so emotionally available and supportive. And I really couldn't have asked for a better supervisor. So it really was an amazing first placement.

[00:31:51] Bronwyn: Oh, good. It sounds like you've been really held like compassionately and supportive. Yeah.

[00:31:57] Fabian: Definitely.

[00:31:58] Bronwyn: Oh, wonderful. And were there any other challenges that you wanted to speak to?

[00:32:03] Fabian: Yes. So, there really were so many challenges. I, I think, I think, I think in some, some semesters it really was a challenge to, to do all the coursework, be on placement, and then also do my part time job. So there was a time when I was actually working three days a week while having a full uni load.

[00:32:29] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh. You poor busy thing!

[00:32:31] Fabian: I know! There was quite a lot to juggle. And, yeah, I did that for two, two semesters actually. So the first two semesters I did do that. Because what had happened was that I had my HR role and then I told my managers at my former corporate job that I wanted to pursue a career in psychology. They were very supportive and then they asked me whether I just wanted to stay on just in a part time capacity and then for some reason I thought it would be a good idea to just do three days a week, which in hindsight was probably a bit too much.

[00:33:07] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:33:09] Fabian: Yes, yes, you learn from mistake and, and, and hindsight is just a beautiful thing, isn't it?

[00:33:16] Bronwyn: Wow. Well, I'm in awe of you. I definitely would have been like rocking in a corner if I doing... and in three days of work.

[00:33:23] Fabian: [Laughter]

[00:33:25] Bronwyn: Okay. Oh my gosh. No, but it is so stressful, like trying to balance, you know, we, we have financial needs, we have a career needs, we, you know, we, we were doing all these things and we're learning simultaneously how to be a psychologist is, it's just a lot, isn't it?

[00:33:40] Fabian: It's so much to actually deal with and I think just doing the Master of Clinic Psychology without working on the side already is hard enough. So I... I sometimes have conversations with classmates who were just doing Uni and I think that that is completely fair enough. So I... I think you just really don't have to work and and if I did have the choice, I would probably also have decided to not work.

So I, I really think this all signifies that we all have our very unique individual pathways to becoming a psychologist. And like social comparison, and I do this a lot, it's just really unhelpful quite often, especially during the Master's program, I think.

[00:34:24] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. I feel like, you know, psychologists as a whole, because we tend to be a bit high achieving and, and we had to get high marks to get into these programs. So it's kind of like we're geared towards social comparison, but you're right in the Masters. It's just, there is no social comparison. We're on our own unique journeys and we all have Yeah.

Let's move on to some of the positives then I want to speak to you about like, so you've become a psychologist. When did you actually gain your general registration?

[00:34:55] Fabian: In December last year.

[00:34:59] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, congratulations.

[00:35:01] Fabian: Thank you very much. Right before Christmas, actually!

[00:35:03] Bronwyn: What a great gift. Well done.

[00:35:06] Fabian: 2023 had. Wow, I, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not often speechless, but when I think of 2023, I just really feel speechless. It was a massive year. So in November 2023, I actually became a citizen of Australia.

[00:35:22] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, congratulations!

[00:35:24] Fabian: And then... Thank you very much! Oh, I'm a very proud Australian.

[00:35:29] Bronwyn: Oh my gosh, amazing.

[00:35:31] Fabian: Thank you very much. And then in December, like one month later, I received my general registration. So like the two biggest milestones of my life had occurred within like four weeks of one another, like, that just felt so surreal. It still feels surreal. So, I'm, I'm now an Australian psychologist.

[00:35:55] Bronwyn: Oh, amazing.

[00:35:57] Fabian: Feels very dreamy.

[00:35:58] Bronwyn: Uh, yeah, absolutely. And just such a, just a huge achievement and yeah, wonderful. I'm very pleased to you and yeah.

And as a psychologist, so you mentioned before that you did your first placement in, um, a gender clinic and you have a really strong interest in gender affirming therapy. Um, could you just tell us a bit, like what drew you to helping people with their gender affirming journey and, and speaking with clients about gender? What's, what's your interest in the area?

[00:36:25] Fabian: Definitely. So, I think gender is a very important area in psychology, and I think It is just so fascinating to think about one's gender identity, especially because if your birth assigned sex is actually congruent with your gender identity, don't think many people even have a reason to think about the gender identity very much on a daily basis and it really becomes quite distressing when there's a mismatch between one's birth assigned sex and one's gender identity.

And then just really experiencing that there is this incongruence, we might want to call it gender dysphoria even, and I genuinely think that it can just cause a lot of distress, a lot of feelings that are very uncomfortable, and then just also a lot of paralysis around the way forward. And I... I just really think gender diverse people deserve good clinicians to support them on their gender journey.

And it might surprise you that, that gender diversity from within is actually very diverse and heterogeneous. Like no one's gender journey really is the same. And therefore I I genuinely think that it is important to just look at the individual, look at their specific gender journey, and then just really individualize therapy, develop an individualized, person centered, and evidence based treatment plan, and then just really make sure that you understand the person's gender identity before you actually decide how to affirm the person's gender identity.

And it... it might already sound quite complex and that's because it actually is because then with gender they are... there come quite a few possible mental health challenges. And when I say with gender, I really mean gender incongruence or gender dysphoria because gender dysphoria usually doesn't exist in isolation. So when you then treat gender dysphoria, you also have to look at other co occurring mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, but possibly borderline personality disorder that co occurs. You might look at autism, aDHD, and then just really look at the intersections of those mental health challenges with gender. And then it just really becomes quite important to know what to treat.

And I believe that sometimes it's important to sidestep and then look at transdiagnostic factors first. Then you could think about how to target those transdiagnostic factors to then reach symptom reduction and then really ameliorate those transdiagnostic factors and then really create space for gender exploration.

So, long story short, I I am truly passionate about gender exploratory therapy. I genuinely think gender diverse people just deserve high standard, evidence based care and treatment. And I just genuinely want to be a psychologist who can just help gender diverse clients live their most wholesome and authentic life. And that's the reason why I just really decided to specialize in gender diverse therapy.

[00:40:16] Bronwyn: Wow, it, it can really hear that passion you, like that genuine belief, like they deserve the best care possible. And yeah, like, you know, our gender diverse, people, like they can often be really marginalized. They can be victims of crime, um, and they can experience prejudice, discrimination, and of those sad things. And so I'm so glad that you exist to be able to provide that safe space for them.

[00:40:41] Fabian: Thank you very much. That means a lot. And I, I, I actually think this adds another dimension to therapy as well. So I, I was essentially talking about internalized factors, but there are definitely external factors that really, as you said, marginalize many gender diverse clients, and then there's societal transphobia, there's homophobia, it becomes even more problematic when a person has a diverse sexuality and a diverse gender identity, and then you just really look at all those compounding factors that you just have to, to work on together and just really try to help the client find a way through their gender identity, their sexual identity, and their life in general.

[00:41:32] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. With all the complexity you're mentioning beforehand, I'm just wondering, did that terrify you when you were starting out as a psychologist? Were you just like, Oh my God.

[00:41:43] Fabian: It, it, it did and it didn't because I, I, I think, so even though it can feel, can feel very daunting to actually then work with a client where there is just a lot going on for the client, I genuinely think that it already helps the client when you show genuine interest, you show, genuine care and just really curiosity for for the client and that is just the foundation for good therapy I think.

And then I just really tried to ensure that those hallmarks were there and then I think working through those complexities just really benefits from having established the rapport with the client having unconditional positive regards. And then it was always my belief that you can just learn all the necessary skills, but you just really have to have the rapport and a good relationship with the client.

And the more I learned about Gender affirming care and the, the Australian environment when it comes to gender affirming care, the more confident I actually feel supporting my clients, because it just really is important to have quite a lot of skills when it comes to gender affirming treatment.

But that doesn't mean that it wasn't scary at the beginning. I, I, I, I reckon I come, I come back to what I said earlier about just really giving it my best shot. Just really, really trying, trying to be a good psychologist to my clients and then just, just not being being deterred by my, my unhelpful thinking stars, I guess because as psychologists we also tend to catastrophize at least I, I catastrophize I jump to conclusions quite a fair bit. I do. I do emotional reasoning. What am I not doing?

Yeah so a lot of unhelpful thinking styles, I think, and when I think back to like really being a week away from starting my first placement, I do think my unhelpful thinking styles went a little bit unchecked. And then it was just important to just, just acknowledge that I was catastrophizing. I was doing like mental filtering as well, actually, and then just really really trying to do some cognitive restructuring, if you, if you want to use that term.

[00:44:19] Bronwyn: Self CBT too. Yep, totally. Yeah!

[00:44:23] Fabian: CBT, yes, exactly.

[00:44:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. But I really love what you've said because what I hear is that you, in the early days and you still do it now, but you emphasize the relationship that you have with your client and you really try and create that foundation where it's a safe space, where it's nonjudgmental, where you have that positive regard for them.

And that, that is a large part of, of what you do. And then you apply the psychological techniques on top of that, but, but that is all meaningless unless you have that rapport built. Yeah, and I think that's really important for listeners to hear because. I often hear that early career psychs feel quite anxious, particularly working with gender diverse folks. They'll be like, "oh my gosh, if I get the pronoun wrong once, they'll hate me, and be awful", you know? Um, and, and like that might be true of some people, but if you're focusing on creating a safe space where you were affirming their gender, you were believing them, you, uh, believe that they have strengths and that they are a unique person who, um, has, has skills and coping strategies to help them survive, um, and you wanna work with them, and you're not trying to be the expert above them, you know, like, this is all good stuff.

[00:45:30] Fabian: Definitely I, I couldn't I couldn't agree more and I I genuinely think that it is actually an important facet of therapy to just humanize yourself as the psychologist because I don't even want to be glorified too much by my, by my clients and then sometimes I, I genuinely think that as early career psychologists, we have to embrace making mistakes with clients and then just owning the mistake. And even I who has worked in the gender affirming space for over two years now, I still sometimes say the wrong words. I sometimes, I sometimes misgender my clients. I sometimes use the wrong pronouns, can feel very mortifying, but that is that is just part of me being a human as well. And my my clients respond pretty well to it, and yeah, we we would then just discuss it very briefly or we don't discuss it. I would just catch myself usually I would then either say i'm so sorry that I just said this i'm obviously only a human as well.

And then just try to take it with a grain of salt and use humor in those moments, I reckon. And I actually think there's something to be said about the therapeutic effects of humor as well with your clients. Like, yeah, right? It can be very powerful, I think. And I, I, I genuinely think that making mistakes as an early career psychologist is, is just something that we have to normalize a little bit more.

[00:47:07] Bronwyn: yeah. I mean, for me, I've, I've done an episode on this previously. Listeners, you can check out the previous episode I've done on, on making mistakes. Um, it's a great episode, but it like, I think even in that episode, I don't say the same thing, but it's like, I feel like you can't get anywhere without making mistakes because mistakes are discovery. So they're how you things are working or not working. How else would you know if you're just trying to be perfect all the time, which is impossible. Um, but we have to work out, we have to try something and be like, Oh, okay, that didn't work.

[00:47:36] Fabian: Yes, definitely. Definitely. And yep, making mistakes is part of our growth journey, I think. Like, we grow through mistakes. And one good example, perhaps, is one of my favorite DBT skills, radical acceptance.

So, I really like practicing radical acceptance with my clients. And it actually quite often works surprisingly well with gender dysphoria in my experience. So it's just really around embracing the feeling, acknowledging that it sucks to be dysphoric. You don't have to like the feeling of gender dysphoria, but you just really try to work through the emotion in the moment and just really develop the ability to just do something helpful in the presence of really debilitating gender dysphoria.

But where making mistakes really comes in there is that sometimes radical acceptance really backfires with clients and sometimes you just really have a bit of a rupture with clients that you then have to recover from because it can be a bit unpredictable in terms of when radical acceptance really is effective and when it's not and I had a few clients that really didn't respond very well to radical acceptance in particular. And then it was just really about re-establishing rapport.

But if you Don't try a skill that is a little bit scary to to apply, you will never get into the habit of really applying it properly. So you just have to try it at some point I think and then just see whether it works or not.

[00:49:14] Bronwyn: And even with radical acceptance, I've had experiences, I remember trying to use it quite early because it was a concept that I really loved learned about it early, very early in my provisional journey. And I was like, "Oh, I love this concept of radical acceptance". And I remember trying to use it with some clients, but this is exactly how I learned about timing. I was like, "Oh, my timing was off. I tried use too early. It was invalidating". I was like, "Oh crap, I'm sorry. I understand how that was invalidating for you". And so now when I think about it, I'm like, In my head, I'll be like, Oh, I think radical acceptance could be helpful here, but I'll be like, timing. And I...

[00:49:51] Fabian: Awesome.

[00:49:52] Bronwyn: When will I introduce this?

[00:49:53] Fabian: Yes. And that's how you develop therapeutic intuition, I suppose. You just really develop like, like a feel for when a certain skill is appropriate and when you should just park it and apply it in a, in a different session in the future.

[00:50:08] Bronwyn: And, and even like how to introduce it. So for some clients, I'll be like, have you heard of this concept of radical acceptance? I wonder be helpful, but some clients, I use this metaphor quite a lot, but I go from, I'll say to them, it sounds like you're in an arm wrestle with this situation and what would it be like if you went to a handshake. You don't have to like the other person at the end of a handshake, but you're just like, okay, just shaking your head. Okay. You're here. I gotcha. Nice.

[00:50:33] Fabian: I love that.

[00:50:33] Bronwyn: Rather than the exhaustion of an arm wrestle.

[00:50:34] Fabian: Yes. Certainly.

[00:50:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. So different, different ways of explaining things to different people. And yeah, that comes with, that comes with making mistakes.

[00:50:42] Fabian: Definitely. Couldn't agree more. Yes.

[00:50:46] Bronwyn: Glad we had a convo about that. Thanks for bringing it up.

[00:50:49] Fabian: Course. Pleasure.

[00:50:50] Bronwyn: Yeah. Fabian, what's important to you now in your early career journey?

[00:50:56] Fabian: Thanks for asking. So, one of the most pivotal components that I really try to integrate into my workday, but also into my private life is just really proper effective self care. And I think something that I really think is important to acknowledge, at least this has been my realization along the way, is that self care just looks very different for for everyone. So I think everyone, and this applies to early career sites in particular, I think, needs to decide what kind of self care works for them.

And at the beginning, I was saying that well being walks are my passion. So self care to me really means to go for well being walks. It means to really eat healthfully. It means to go to the gym, even though I hate going to the gym, but I drag myself to the gym and then I reward myself with, with a sauna after the gym because our gym is really nice. They have a sauna, so that is a good, I know that is a good... that is a, that is a good compromise and a good incentive to actually then do the body pump work out. Like body pump is so exhausting. Yeah.

[00:52:16] Bronwyn: It is.

[00:52:17] Fabian: And yeah, just, just, I just really needed a bit of time to just figure out what works for me rather than reading up on self care and then thinking that I just needed to work through a whole list that some random has developed because that just really was not practical for me. And then I thought that reading a book, for instance, would be self care, but I just don't like reading very much on a Sunday because then it just feels like a chore. So I just needed to realize that reading perhaps even it's the opposite to self care on a Sunday, because on a Sunday it just doesn't feel like self-care. And then I just really got got into this, this thought cycle where I was then thinking that I needed to do selfcare, that I thought was self-care, but just really wasn't self-care for me.

So. Yeah, long story Exactly. Long story short. I think for early career psychologists like me, it's just important to really tailor self care to ourselves and then just really finding out what actually works for us what what recharges our batteries? What do we want to do after a really long exhausting day at work? How do we recover from a really draining client session? What It's just really conducive to us and our mental health and how do we actually combat burnout, which I really think is a massive issue for early career psychs in particular.

[00:53:53] Bronwyn: I'm interested in, in why this is so current for you. Like, have you always been militant about self care or did this come up, this realization come up from maybe experiencing your own burnout?

[00:54:05] Fabian: Yeah, I I've I've always been a very health conscious person. So I I've always really looked after myself physically and as I was mentioning earlier, I seek out my own private therapy, but when I started working in private practice in particular I just really have found that I find certain days very draining. And then I sometimes have days they're just stack up where I would really have quite challenging emotionally exhausting sessions, and then I sometimes don't catch it early enough and then I just really don't have the feeling that I recover sufficiently and then I, I essentially transfer my exhaustion into the next week and I think it's just really important to have certain self care circuit breakers and just really, really make sure that I self care and I really am trying to prioritize self care because I personally just find working in the private practice context very exhausting at times.

[00:55:14] Bronwyn: Totally. Yes. Um, I'm really glad that you've emphasised that to listeners because it really is exhausting. And I think some of our listeners with unrelenting standards, like me, but like, yeah, we'd just be like, "Oh, I'm just a wimp. just push on like whatever. I'm just not handling. It's me. good enough".

Um, and, but, and so I'm always like. It is hard. It is genuinely hard. It is genuinely exhausting. You could be the, I don't know, like a superstar and you would still feel exhausted in this job.

[00:55:44] Fabian: Totally.

[00:55:45] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah, we, we carry a lot.

[00:55:47] Fabian: Totally. I agree. I agree.

[00:55:49] Bronwyn: And so we need to dedicate that time to self care. And I'm glad you found some self care. I'm just thinking back to when you're like, yeah, my friends love the wellbeing walks.

[00:56:00] Fabian: They, they do! Don't, don't destroy my illusion!

[00:56:05] Bronwyn: Like meeting tonight and they're like how we tell Fabian for the tenth time we don't like the well being walks.

[00:56:11] Fabian: They're all planning an intervention!

[00:56:13] Bronwyn: Yeah!

I'm sure, I'm sure they like it.

[00:56:20] Fabian: I feel reassured.

[00:56:22] Bronwyn: Fabian, looking towards the future, what are your career goals or aspirations? Is there any, like, do you still want to continue with specialising in gender affirming care? Um, or is there any other areas you're interested in exploring further or any other work types?

[00:56:37] Fabian: So, in the near future, I definitely want to stay focused on gender affirming care, and I'm currently working at a wonderful private practice in Newtown. It's called King Street Psychology. Every clinician here is incredibly capable, and we all are very interested in, in gender affirming care, and it is just a really wonderful environment to just bounce off ideas sometimes, and then just to know that there are about 10, 12, or even 14 like minded clinicians. It's just a really beautiful experience to be just part of that very wholesome team.

And I am definitely committed to, to, to complete my registrar program here at Kingsford Psychology. But I can, I can definitely see myself exploring different areas in the future. So for, for instance, I just really want to complete an EMDR training because I, I do think EMDR is a very compelling approach. I just don't know anything about EMDR yet. So I definitely want to just be able to work with, with client who have experienced ptsd a little bit more effectively. There's a lot to be said about chroma focused cbt, but I do feel like it reaches its limits sometimes.

So I, I just I just really want to enhance my knowledge around trauma focused work, I guess. Especially because there is such a large intersection between trauma and gender diversity sometimes as well. So I, I think I could just really combine those two skills in the future quite effectively.

[00:58:25] Bronwyn: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I was kind of thinking when you mentioned King Street Clinic, because, the lovely Emma has been on the podcast and then the lovely Nick has been on the podcast and now you've been on the podcast. like working my way through like the King Street Clinic, like staff team. Hey, if anybody else you're next.

[00:58:48] Fabian: It's very exciting!

[00:58:51] Bronwyn: So it's, it's so lovely. It sounds like you have an amazing, amazing clinic there. And yeah, I love, um, like James Morandini. I always look because I'm part of the APS, um, gender and sexually diverse, um, professionals group and James is, is leading that and he always posts such great stuff and such good resources and just great research around, um, gender diverse folks. It's wonderful.

[00:59:13] Fabian: And I actually, about two weeks ago, I actually did an APS talk and about 40 other psychologists joined, which once again, was a very daunting experience, but I really wanted to share my passion and my knowledge around gender affirming hormone therapy in particular. So I essentially gave a one hour talk for some of our psychology colleagues and it was just a really nice event because psychologists are just very curious people and it was really nice that so many people joined to just learn a little bit more about gender affirming hormone therapy in particular, so.

[00:59:52] Bronwyn: Well done on the presentation.

[00:59:53] Fabian: Thank you very much. And I can, I can not praise James Morandini highly enough, by the way. So earlier when I was saying that I had my supervisor at the Gender Center, that was James Morandini. And yeah, he, he's still supervising me here at King Street Psychology. He is just the most marvelous clinician I've ever met. And I just really look up to him. It's really nice to have a role model on site.

[01:00:19] Bronwyn: Totally. I think we need that in psychology as well. Thanks, James.

[01:00:23] Fabian: Exactly. Thanks, James. XOXO.

[01:00:30] Bronwyn: Um, finally, Fabian, it's been such a pleasure to have you on. And what advice would you give to early career psychologists that you wish you had when you were starting out?

[01:00:41] Fabian: Advice is always a difficult thing to give because I personally, and I mentioned that when I was talking about self care, I personally think it is just important to acknowledge that we are all on our own individual journey and therefore I just always find it very hard to generalize advice.

But perhaps, perhaps one thing I wish I had known was that it will just all work out and to just really trust the process and it just really all points felt incredibly overwhelming. I didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I just had a glimpse of hope, but I just wish I had been a little bit more confident in the process of becoming a psychologist and rest assured that the the pathway i've decided on is the right pathway.

I still sometimes wonder whether I'm cut out to be a psychologist, but I I think, I think I really am getting to the point where I just feel more self assured and confident as a psychologist And yeah, I, I I wish I had known that it will just all be fine and work out very well in the end.

[01:02:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, thank you so much Fabian. And if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[01:02:09] Fabian: You can always add me on LinkedIn. Who doesn't like LinkedIn? Especially when you want to detox from Instagrams. Switch to LinkedIn and add me, fabian Friedrich on LinkedIn. Or look me up on the King Street Psychology website. But other than that, I'm not even sure. Send me an email to fabian at kingstreetpsychology.com if you want to get in touch. Yeah.

[01:02:35] Bronwyn: Wonderful. I'll pop those links in the show notes. Um, Fabian again.

[01:02:39] Fabian: It's very tempting to stalk me, but please don't stalk me I'm joking.

[01:02:44] Bronwyn: If you've got, if you've got an inclination to stalk Fabian, maybe don't.

[01:02:50] Fabian: Apply, apply the stop skill which is one of your favorite skills that you keep saying.

[01:02:55] Bronwyn: Take a back. Observe. Yes.

[01:02:57] Fabian: And proceed mindfully, exactly!

[01:02:59] Bronwyn: Yeah!

Okay. Well, Fabian, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure to hear about your journey and your passions and what has been challenging and what you find really rewarding about being a psychologist. I think our listeners will have learned a lot from you today. So thank you.

[01:03:14] Fabian: Thanks, Bronwyn. This was so much fun.

[01:03:18] Bronwyn: Oh good!

[01:03:19] Fabian: Thanks for making it so enjoyable, but my inner critic is already kicking in, and I'm post analyzing everything, and I'm like, well, you said the listeners learned a lot, and then there I was, thinking, well, I could, could have shared so much more.

[01:03:35] Bronwyn: You did enough.

[01:03:36] Fabian: Uh!

[01:03:36] Bronwyn: Yep.

[01:03:37] Fabian: I am I am enough

[01:03:39] Bronwyn: Yes, you are enough. You did enough.

[01:03:41] Fabian: Let's do some core belief disputation.

I am, I am enough.

[01:03:46] Bronwyn: Wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.

[01:03:48] Fabian: Thank you!

[01:03:49] Bronwyn: So listeners, thank you as well for listening. And if you enjoyed this episode or any of our previous ones, do give us a five star rating. It's the best way to get the episode into new ears. And just tell your mate, tell your dog, tell your cat, tell your goldfish, tell anybody who wants to know about the pod, or even if they don't want to know, just let them know. Take care. That's a wrap. And thanks for listening to Mental Work. Catch you next time. Bye.