Therapists can benefit from mindfulness too (with Matthew Jackson)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey mental workers, you're listening to The Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about the importance of mindfulness practice as a therapist.

[00:00:19] We often know that as a therapist, we need a lot of empathy and a lot of insight, but the role of mindfulness for us as therapists kind of remains unexplored. We're very happy to preach mindfulness to our clients, but we don't really talk about it for us. So here to help us dive into this topic is our returning guest, Matthew Jackson. Hi, Matthew.

[00:00:42] Matthew: Hi, I'm back, back, back, back, back, back, back again.

[00:00:46] Bronwyn: We're very happy to have you. And Matthew, could you just remind listeners who you are? And we're going to do favorite musician today.

[00:00:55] Matthew: Yes, so, um, hello listeners, my name is Matt, or Matthew, whatever you want. Um, I am a General Psych, a Registered General Psych, I've been practicing for five years, um, and just last week, uh, became a Board Approved Supervisor.

[00:01:11] Bronwyn: Woo hoo.

[00:01:12] Matthew: Thank you, thank you. Um, so, you know, if you ever need a supervision, um, in regards to like DBT or personality disorders or whatever, um, please reach out to me. I would, I would love to, to discuss.

[00:01:26] Bronwyn: You heard it here first, listeners. If you need supervision, whatever. Matthew is here.

[00:01:32] Matthew: I feel like maybe I should be clear on what I mean by whatever. No, this is not good.

[00:01:39] Bronwyn: If you want to talk about your gardening, Matthew is your person. But you like plants, so I mean you probably could.

[00:01:45] Matthew: That's true, I will take discussions around plants and horror films. Um, or, or I will also take discussions around my new favourite artist at the moment.

[00:01:54] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:01:55] Matthew: Um, who, and I really hope I'm pronouncing her name correctly. It's Chapel Rowan, or Roan?

[00:02:03] Bronwyn: I haven't heard of them.

[00:02:05] Matthew: Like, amazing voice, really beautiful.

[00:02:09] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:02:09] Matthew: Um, from the U. S. I believe.

[00:02:12] Mainly because they talk about Tennessee, and I was like, okay, I think you're from the U. S. Um, uh, and there's just a couple of, um, I think they might be a millennial, like myself, but, like, the way that they talk about certain things, such as, like, being queer, or the first time they were intimate with somebody else, I was like, ooh, that's like, actually a way that I would describe it, and this is feeling really, um, validating, and I'm really liking you, so you're my new favorite now.

[00:02:41] Bronwyn: How do you spell it?

[00:02:43] Matthew: C H A P E L L E, I think I've spelt that right, and then R O A N.

[00:02:50] Bronwyn: R O A N. Chappelle Roan. That's how I'd say it. Okay,

[00:02:53] Matthew: Really, really interesting, and like, she's quite fun too, like, like, lots of bright colors, wigs, like, she's really cool.

[00:02:59] Bronwyn: Yeah, awesome. I love it how music can just resonate with us and it's like you can give, the musician can give words and like verbalize like a really complex experience.

[00:03:08] Matthew: Oh, completely. She, um, has this song called Pink Pony Club, and, um, it's essentially about this girl who moves from Tennessee to Hollywood, um, and she is getting, like, judged by family for performing in, like, drag clubs? But, drag clubs are like the only place that'll take her, and just the way that she described like, drag queens and performers, I was like, oh, I, I um, personally haven't performed in drag for a couple of months now, just taking a bit of a break, and I was like, oh, that makes me miss it, because her description's so accurate, like, oh, I want that feeling again.

[00:03:43] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:03:44] Matthew: Um. So, yeah, you're right, it's amazing how an artist can, like, encapsulate a feeling or a vibe or something, uh, and it just really resonates with you.

[00:03:54] Bronwyn: So cool, thank you for sharing that with us.

[00:03:56] Okay, onto the topic of today. I feel like we should just give a definition of mindfulness first. Do you want to share your definition or do you want me to go first?

[00:04:06] Matthew: Ooh, okay, you go first, and then I'm gonna follow.

[00:04:09] Bronwyn: Okay, mine is very non complex. It's literally one sentence. It is, paying attention non judgmentally in the present moment.

[00:04:18] That's my definition of mindfulness. Okay, you go. Okay.

[00:04:22] Matthew: I love that. So I would say, I would say, um, that there's three main points, and you've already gotten... mmm... two of them. Um, it's about like, riveting your attention to the, the now, the present, what's going on here and now. Um, and, uh, doing so non judgmentally. Um, and I would also add in, I usually add this in as the end, as like a third point, um, that it's also without like, attaching to the moment. Um, like, you know, like waves in the ocean allowing the moment to come and to go without attaching to it.

[00:04:55] Bronwyn: Okay, so you're really passionate about this area of mindfulness and I'm just curious if you could share with us your personal journey about mindfulness, how you got into it and then how it intersects with your work as a therapist. Yes.

[00:05:11] Matthew: Let's be very real. Let's be so real. When I first started my career as a psych, so five years ago now, actually five years ago this month, um, I hated mindfulness.

[00:05:25] Hated it. Um, I thought it was, I thought it was like, um, bullshit. I don't know if I can say that.

[00:05:31] Bronwyn: You can. You can say that.

[00:05:33] Matthew: Thank you very much. I thought it was bullshit.

[00:05:35] I thought, um, this is ridiculous, shouldn't we just be like, um, like regulating our emotions and moving on? Like, what are you talking about? I, I thought, like, this is that new, new age thing. Like, it's artsy fartsy, you know? You know, like, what is this solving? Yeah, it's hippy dippy, it's people trying to sit around saying kumbaya, like, what are you doing? Let's fix, let's fix some trauma problems.

[00:05:59] I do remember a moment within supervision where my supervisor directly challenged me, it was really appropriate actually, where my supervisor asked me, so why don't you practice mindfulness? And they were assuming that I didn't, and they were also correct. Um, I think it was very obvious I didn't, so their assumption was very, very correct.

[00:06:23] Bronwyn: Would feel personally attacked except you're right.

[00:06:25] Matthew: Yeah.

[00:06:26] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:27] Matthew: I was like, okay, okay, very good, very good, well done, you're a good psych.

[00:06:31] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:06:33] Matthew: Good perception there. Um, yeah, the question was something along the lines of like, why don't you practice mindfulness? And, um, I think at first, You know, it's like, oh, look, I just don't get it. Or, um, I need to do more research. Like, I think I was trying to, you know, kind of be perfect a little bit and, you know, positive manage.

[00:06:52] But really, the reason why I didn't practice mindfulness was because I was terrified, similar to a lot of clients terrified about what that would bring up. Like actually bringing my attention and focus to what's going on for me right now is terrifying about what that would bring up.

[00:07:10] And so over my probably first year or two, I would say two years, let's go two years, I would say I really had to work extremely hard on mindfulness practice and would have to have like a mindfulness diary and kind of force myself into it, until I understood kind of the point of it. Um, and there's a, a kind of example around that I'll, I'll talk about maybe a bit later, um, to the point now where I'm, I'm probably, I would say three years into practicing regular mindfulness. And it is, I kind of even say daily. It's like a, I also don't wanna say minute by minute 'cause that would be actually incorrect. It's probably like a an hour by hour practice. Um, and I don't know if I could actually not do it. Like, my, yeah, my, my practice relies really heavily on it. I mean, the therapy that I give people, DBT, it, the entire therapy falls off of it. Um, and even in my personal life, my personal life has greatly benefited from mindfulness practice.

[00:08:22] So, um, my, my personal journey with mindfulness starts with, I hate this. This is a crock of shit. Um, and all the way until, you know, five years later, and I'm like, I, I actually can't live without this. I need to do this a lot.

[00:08:38] Bronwyn: Wow. Could you tell us like specifically what your mindfulness practice looks like? I'm always wondering about that. 'cause people are like, I practice mindfulness, and I'm like, what do you do?

[00:08:48] Matthew: Okay. I love it. Okay. So if you had asked me this question at the very beginning, so, you know, two, three, four, five years ago. Um, it would have been like very structured. So I would do two minute breathing exercises and I would just put my phone on two minute timer, like in between clients as well. and I would just, uh, notice my breath going in my nose down to my stomach or at least where it was sitting in my body and then coming back out my nose. I noticed that if I breathed out through my mouth, I became really distracted. And it was really hard to bring my attention back, but when I did it through the nose, it was more intentional.

[00:09:28] So, um, I guess, you know, I mean, that's a part of mindfulness, right? Intentional awareness. So, I was bringing myself there. Um, and so it started off with like two minute breathing exercises and then moved to things like, um, coloring in.

[00:09:43] Bronwyn: Oh yes.

[00:09:44] Matthew: And like, um, really intentionally coloring outside of the line.

[00:09:48] Bronwyn: Oh

[00:09:48] Matthew: Right, and, um, you know, this is after a while, right? This is not, you know, day two.

[00:09:53] Like, after a while, being really imperfect and sitting with, like, I want to throw this out and scrunch it, and now I'm upset,

[00:10:00] Bronwyn: Really bringing that curiosity to your experiences.

[00:10:04] Matthew: Correct. Yeah, and I think as well, you know, others might not agree with this, but I really wanted to keep my mindfulness practice away from my self care practice.

[00:10:15] Bronwyn: Oh, okay.

[00:10:17] Matthew: In the sense of back then, you know, at the very beginning of mindfulness practice, um, my mindfulness practice was like very structured. It was really intentional.

[00:10:27] I wanted to shape myself into this behavior, if you will. So I thought about it really like kind of clinically. Um, and my self care was a space to like, um, treat myself. And so I wanted to keep them really separate. I get the behavior, I get it in there. See what happens.

[00:10:43] And now, like, years later, um, I have integrated them because I don't, I don't need to, like, shape myself anymore. I'm, I'm able to be present to my experiences. And now, my mindfulness and self care is actually more about self compassion. Like, integrating them, it's, it's evolved. So, yes...

[00:11:03] Bronwyn: Like, I wonder if I'm following your train of thought right, but I reckon at the start it sounds like you're kind of like, okay, self care is like treat yourself. Um, so that's kind of like fun, relaxing. Whereas mindfulness, I guess it requires a certain amount of discipline to be able to pay attention non judgmentally in the moment and then not beat yourself up for like being non judgmental, um, for being judgmental and being like, oh, I'm like, I'm facing shit. Like, why did I do that? Just like, no, okay. Just be non judgmental. Like, is that what you were kind of thinking?

[00:11:30] Matthew: Yeah, completely. I mean, to put it this way, right, I came into practicing as a psych, so I came into my internship year, actually not having any mindfulness skills. I didn't have that, I didn't grow up like that, you know, being told to like observe, what I was feeling and where in my body that was impacting me wasn't a thing I grew up with. That's not how my parents raised me.

[00:11:52] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:11:52] Matthew: So for me coming into mindfulness, it was, Oh, I actually have to be super structured. I have to be very clinical, kind of non emotional. I have to really be strategic with this. And once I've got a feeling of, okay, this is a routine now, and I'm understanding what it looks like, now that I've got the routine in, it's time to actually be a lot more experiential. It's time to bring in emotion. It's time to bring in thought. It is time to, kind of be less structured and more flexible. Have fun with it, you know?

[00:12:23] Um, but again, I guess if you, perhaps if you are like me and, You think back to, well, I was never taught to be mindful. That wasn't something as part of my childhood or, you know, my, my rearing, my development, maybe it would be helpful to do something similar to what I did and to be a bit more structured with it and see if that helps get that behavior in there.

[00:12:44] Bronwyn: Yeah. Was there a turning point that you remember from being like, mindfulness is bullshit to like, I'm going to do mindfulness every day?

[00:12:54] Matthew: 1 million percent.

[00:12:56] Bronwyn: Tell us.

[00:12:57] Matthew: Uh, the turning point for me was I was in a session with a client and I was And I had, I had completely tuned out. I don't remember where I went, but I went somewhere, completely tuned out. And when I came back to it, the client actually confronted me.

[00:13:14] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:13:15] Matthew: They had noticed that I tuned out.

[00:13:17] Bronwyn: Oh my God. I would have felt, oh gosh. So embarrassed.

[00:13:21] Matthew: So, right, so what's coming up for you right now is probably similar to her. Um, and I felt, yeah, embarrassed. I felt really shameful and, um, I didn't whip myself. There was no punitiveness. There was no punishment. It was, uh, it was kind of a waking, um, a wake up moment, right? It was like, oh, yeah, okay.

[00:13:44] So this thing that research tells me to do, the therapy that I give tells me to do, and my supervisor keeps asking me to do this. Actually, I need to do this for my, for my clients, but also for me because I'm tuning out. Like, I'm not even present. Where, where did I go? I still don't know. I still don't remember where I went. I have no idea. Um, but at the time I was like, where did I even go? Um, and so because of that moment, because of the feedback from that client, um, also what an amazing human being, by the way. Can we just like, right? Like just for one second, celebrate the like, like the bravery it takes for a client to say to a therapist, Hey, I'm noticing something,

[00:14:28] Bronwyn: Super proud of that person. Like, well done them.

[00:14:30] Matthew: Right. Like they, like communication skills on point and. They literally did the thing that I wasn't doing.

[00:14:36] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Matthew: Were mindful of me in session, like, hello.

[00:14:43] Right, so, um, ever since then I took mindfulness far more seriously, and that was when that plan and structure began to develop.

[00:14:51] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay. So how do you integrate mindfulness into your therapeutic approach now? Like, you know, having practiced it and be like, okay, I need to be in the present moment. How does that come into your therapy? And I know you use like DBT a lot. Um, yeah. How does it come into that?

[00:15:09] Matthew: Yeah, yeah so I guess, um, it's part of the therapy in itself. So, that can be really helpful, like DBT, um, I guess I'm kind of critiquing other treatments here a little bit, but, um, DBT has a set, um, it has skills for practicing mindfulness. Like the what skill, you observe, you describe, and you participate.

[00:15:30] And I find that, like, perhaps when I have, uh, done other groups, like CBT groups or something, and they talk about mindfulness, it is more about the practice of, like, you Mindfulness Breathing or Mindful Coloring In, but there isn't the like, well, when we say being mindful, we mean observe, describe, participate, da da da da da. And so I like that structure that gave me guidance of, oh, this is what I... this is what mindfulness is. This is what it looks like operationally.

[00:15:58] Uh, and so in a session with somebody, um, I guess my opening question is a mindfulness based question of like, how are you feeling in this moment? It, like, I'm, I'm asking that person to be mindful, to check in with themselves, their body. If I get like, I don't know, um, I will say to them, okay, well, we need to do a mindfulness practice. And I will do that with them. Right. Um, or like good, what, what does good mean? Good means. Something different between each person. What do you mean?

[00:16:27] So like, even those types of questions, which is just like question one and two, if you'll, is a mindfulness based question. even just things of like, um, how was your week? Oh my God, I can't believe your best friend said that about you. What came up? Like, even that is just a mindfulness based question.

[00:16:44] So yeah, so I, I find myself, um, definitely doing intentional mindfulness practice with clients who are not present in the moment. Um, I will do that, but I'm also find myself doing it, I guess, through like, a combination of like, Socratic, I guess it's Socratic questioning in a way,

[00:17:03] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:17:04] Matthew: Um, but it's, it's an interesting combo, but yeah, those types of questions, like, How are you feeling? What came up? When you were rating your emotions over the week on, on this diary, when you were rating your emotions, what did you notice in your body? Just trying to tune people in, uh, uh, to observe what's happening for them in each given moment.

[00:17:25] Um, doing those questions, I've observed, um, in my practice, has allowed people to notice like, Oh, when I'm doing this or feeling this or thinking this. Oh, my body does that. That's like a really big moment for people.

[00:17:41] But I also bring mindfulness in, I guess mindfulness descriptions, through for myself as well. So if... oh, actually, great example. a client today was like, um, this happened throughout my week, um, and I didn't feel good and I tried different types of questioning to understand, well, what is good and I need to understand what that means.

[00:18:01] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:18:03] Matthew: But I couldn't get anything, and I kind of exhausted all of my typical skills, and so I just went for, okay, time for equality. So I, um, said, you know what, if I was in your shoes, I would feel abandoned and really invalidated. So I would know I'm feeling abandoned because I would notice this in my body, and when I feel invalidated, this is the thought I notice come through for me. And so I'm wondering for you, like, what happens in your body? What thoughts did you notice?

[00:18:32] And that prompted the person to go, Oh, well I did think this, and duh duh duh duh duh, like we were able to backtrack to an emotion then. Um, so even just like, that type of questioning is a form of mindfulness.

[00:18:43] Bronwyn: Wow, that's so cool. That's a really clear demonstration of how your own practice can really help, I guess, yeah, with therapy by noticing what's happening in yourself and being able to describe that and then being curious about your client's experiences. Beautiful.

[00:18:58] Matthew: Completely. I mean, even like, um, sure, as a therapist, right, we do our best to not assume that we know what somebody's feeling. And, part of being a therapist is like, you know, kind of like, throwing it out there and seeing if we're right or wrong,

[00:19:13] Bronwyn: I do that so often. I'm literally like, I have an idea about this. Can I share it with you? Yes. I'm thinking blah blah blah. Does that resonate with you? Tell me if it's something different. Blah blah blah.

[00:19:23] Matthew: Love the way you worded that too, I actually really like that. Um, Um, but that observation in itself is mindfulness.

[00:19:30] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Matthew: The way that I think about it, right, is like, okay, um, if I'm in a session with a client and I think I'm picking up on shame. Well, how do I know I'm picking up on shame within myself? I know my eyes go down and I play with my hands and then my body goes in and I go really silent. Oh, wait, the client's not doing that at all though, so it's not shame. Okay, well look at that one over there. What is going on for them? And I have to think about So, when I've done mindfulness, when I've intentionally practiced mindfulness and done mindfulness, what a funny thing.

[00:20:01] Bronwyn: Done.

[00:20:01] Matthew: Tick. done an attempt, but there's my perfectionism coming through

[00:20:05] there. Um, uh, but when I have, uh, intentionally practiced mindfulness and gone through the different emotions and thought about, well, how does that emotion appear for me? How do I know I'm feeling it? Then I can also, like, mirror that to clients and, you know, say something like, um, you know, okay, well, I'm noticing that, you know, your shoulders are doing this and your voice is doing this. For me, that fits for this emotion, but it could also be this one. What do you think? That is also mindfulness too, being able to just think about, okay, well, how do I experience that emotion? Could that help to fit for that person as well?

[00:20:43] Bronwyn: Yes. And I feel like, I don't know for you, but I feel like I've gotten better at that over the years. It's like, um, I remember when I first started out as a psych, I would try and, take a guess at people's emotions. And I was getting it wrong like all the time as like when I was first starting out. And I'd, I'd be like stress, anxiety, and there'd be like shame. And I'd be like, okay, way off the mark.

[00:21:06] Um, and now that I've, now that I feel like, um, I'm a bit more practiced at mindfulness and noticing it in myself. Like I almost like, I don't want to toot my own horn, but I almost always get it correct the first time now, which is really cool.

[00:21:18] Matthew: Completely agree with you. Had the exact same experience, right? Like you, you start out, you're like, I think I know it. Probably not like nine out of 10 times. Probably not.

[00:21:27] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:21:28] Matthew: There's no research on that. Don't quote me. Um, um, but like through your own mindfulness practice and like general experience, um, but through your own mindfulness experience, you can start to understand, like, oh, I connect with that person on that, so, okay, I think it's this then. and you are able to pick up on those, there's just those little things that, um, you only know if you're practicing mindfulness.

[00:21:53] Bronwyn: Absolutely. So, I guess mindfulness is often portrayed as like, it's a cure for everything, including cancer. Like, what are some of the common misconceptions that therapists might have about mindfulness?

[00:22:09] Matthew: Uh, I think that, like, it is, a misconception is that, like, it is a cure?

[00:22:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. I agree.

[00:22:16] Matthew: Right? Like, um, maybe, uh, why don't I use the word selling? I think that's quite interesting that I want to use that word. Um, maybe selling mindfulness to clients, like, Okay, well if you practice mindfulness, your anxiety will reduce, right? Like, even just using language like will, we don't actually really know that. There is research, it's pretty good research, but everyone's different. So, we might not, um, but even just kind of trying to sell like, well, mindfulness will work, like this, this is the thing for you to hang off of now.

[00:22:47] You've explored medication, I'll forget that.

[00:22:49] Oh, you've done exercise, I'll forget that. Now let's try mindfulness, that's the next, like, you know, needle, that's the next jab for you. Let's give it a go. Um, trying to sell it as, like, a cure or a...

[00:23:00] Bronwyn: I agree. I feel like if we're trying to, like, even for ourselves, if we think it's that it's the cure all for everything, and if you do mindfulness, it will be like your saviour. I feel like it's a, it's a crucial part, um, maybe of your self care or, your understanding of yourself and your experiences in the world, but I, I don't feel like mindfulness is everything. What do you think?

[00:23:21] Matthew: Agreed.

[00:23:22] Bronwyn: Yeah. Okay, cool.

[00:23:23] Matthew: I think even just being honest with clients and saying, like, I, I think you might even hate this. Right, like, I think this is gonna be so uncomfortable and I think you're gonna hate me. And Um, you know, we kind of don't know what's going to come up and da da da, like, be honest about it. Mindfulness does have, like, um, drawbacks to it.

[00:23:44] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh, that's a really good point. Um, there is some, because some people who have complex trauma, for instance, or just trauma, they might be very phobic of their inner experiences, like including positive experiences. So bringing attention to their body sensations, how they're thinking, it can be, it can bring people outside of their window of tolerance, essentially. Like it can be very, um, anxiety provoking and stress inducing. Yep.

[00:24:06] Matthew: Completely. I mean, think about, um, people who dissociate, um, people who just naturally avoid, like, emotions or, you experiential anything, right? Like asking somebody to do the opposite of those things and actually be mindful to their experiences... like you're actually asking quite a lot of that person.

[00:24:27] Bronwyn: Yeah. So maybe, maybe one of the misconceptions is that like, if we enjoy mindfulness for ourselves and we find it good, like, don't assume that what's worked for you will work for the client.

[00:24:37] Matthew: Completely which I think opens up to like the second misconception, which is that like, oh Um, Mindfulness is just, uh, being present to your breath.

[00:24:48] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's so true.

[00:24:53] Matthew: Right? It's so much more than that. Um, given that, uh, you know, typically when I talk about mindfulness, I will use breath as the first example, because it really is the only thing that's with us 24/ 7.

[00:25:05] Bronwyn: Accessible.

[00:25:06] Matthew: Right? And at the same time, you can do mindful colouring in, you can do, like, mindful yoga, do you know, um, you can even do, like, mindful avoidance. Like, that is a thing!

[00:25:18] Bronwyn: What's mindful avoidance?

[00:25:19] Matthew: Yeah, so like, in DBT, um, we have a whole skill called the Accept skill, which is about distracting, uh, in order to, you know, survive a crisis moment, so it's very short term based, and essentially, when I present that skill to anybody, I will describe this as Mindful Avoidance. We are mindfully choosing to avoid problem solving this emotion. We are mindfully avoiding accessing this emotion and feeling it or confronting this thought or doing whatever it is. We are choosing to avoid that and in doing so we are also avoiding consequences that come from that, um, like positive ones. And we may also be creating more longer term consequences because that's kind of what happens with avoidance.

[00:26:09] Bronwyn: Oh, wow. I love how you framed that. That's such a cool way of thinking about it because yeah, it really frames it as like I'm making a choice here. Yeah. Wow. That's so cool.

[00:26:19] Matthew: Yeah. Do you know what, I did this the other night. I got home from a really, like rough day, uh, in, in, in the psych world. And, um, somebody said to me like, do you want to talk about it? Uh, it was another professional. Um, and so I had an opportunity to consult with them completely and I didn't want to. I just, I didn't want to, so I mindfully avoided. I said to them, no, actually, I'm going to avoid this tonight and I'm just going to shut off. I'm going to go to bed, shut off, avoid, not think about it, and I'll deal with it tomorrow.

[00:26:49] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:26:50] Matthew: I was more than happy to do that.

[00:26:51] That's avoidance.

[00:26:52] Bronwyn: Perfectly acceptable.

[00:26:54] Matthew: Yeah, right? Nobody was in danger, so what's up with mindfully avoiding?

[00:26:59] Bronwyn: No. Oh, good. Yeah. No, I love that.

[00:27:01] Okay. So, how do you differentiate then between like genuine mindfulness practice and like surface level engagement? Cause I could be like, yeah, I'm breathing. Yeah. I'm so aware of my experience. So aware. So nonjudgmental.

[00:27:18] Like, how do you know if I'm actually doing it or not?

[00:27:22] Matthew: I love that. Um, so I would say. Um, if I'm, you know, uh, with a client or clients in a group, um, doing mindfulness, I actually really have no idea if they're doing it or not, right? Unless it's physical participation. So, if I'm doing a mindfulness of stretching, which is also really fun, by the way, if you've never done it, um, Google mindfulness of stretching, it's quite fun. Um, yeah, right? It's amazing.

[00:27:52] Um, if I'm doing that and, um, and the person is, like, I can see visually they're not stretching. They're just sitting down, arms crossed, not participating, then, okay, yeah, they're probably not doing the mindfulness task. That also doesn't mean that they're not doing mindfulness period, though. They could be mindfully observing their thoughts about the exercise. They could be sitting with an uncomfortable, um, like physical or emotional feeling about standing up in front of people and stretching. So, they could still be being mindful.

[00:28:22] Um, for me as a therapist, when it comes to mindfulness practice, I am a bit more direct in my questioning. So, um, after mindfulness, I will ask the person, or if it's in a group, people, I will say, so what came up? What did you observe? And I will ask, like, nearly each person to make a comment, um, and it might be something like, I observed anxiety, and then it'll be, okay, where in the body did you observe that? So again, like, going deeper, um, and trying to understand, so what did you actually take away from it? Um, is the only way that I've figured out? that I can figure out if somebody's actually practicing it or not. Trying to really unders I guess trying to really prompt a description of their observation. Right? Like, through your five senses, what did you pick up on? Um, that's the only way that I've personally worked it out.

[00:29:18] Um, but also it's from my own, it's from my own observations of like, oh yeah, I'm doing this breathing exercise right now and I'm actually not doing it because I'm thinking about this client that I've got in an hour and I'm worried about them and I'm avoiding this. Like, just observing for myself, when do I avoid, when do I clock out, when do I pretend that I'm actually doing it.

[00:29:41] Bronwyn: Yes. And maybe, like, I was just reflecting as you were talking, like, maybe it's the wrong question to ask, like, you know, is, are people doing it genuinely or surface level? Because it's like, we want to know if there's any resistance to what's happening as well. If your brain is like, this is a boring activity, I don't want to do it. Like, we're interested in that stuff, right?

[00:29:58] Matthew: We love it. Oh my god, we love it. If you're like, that was boring, love it. I want to know why it was boring. Tell me more. When you say boring, like, what was happening in your body?

[00:30:12] Bronwyn: Yes. When I do "dropping anchor" which is a mindfulness technique from ACT, I'm like, I'll usually guide my clients through it and I'll be like, okay, whatever comes up in your mind, it might be like, this is boring. I hate the sound of Bronwyn's voice, like all that kind of stuff. It's like, I genuinely want to know. Yeah.

[00:30:30] Matthew: I love that. Um, I, I do one, uh, that has like, um, I essentially ask clients to make sounds.

[00:30:38] Bronwyn: Oh?

[00:30:39] Matthew: Um, and, you know, you kind of do maybe like a, I'm a sound you'd hear everyday. Maybe like a car, like. You know? Um, and then you want to progressively encourage people to engage in making up their own sound. Like right? And, um, it's kind of, I'm sort of fighting a bit of perfectionism there, but that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother. and I guess in doing so, like there's so many different things that are happening, but like, you are sort of testing for resistance, and you are, you can be a little bit funny and say, like, you're probably gonna think, like, the sound I made is so stupid, and I want you to say that to yourself. Like, allow yourself to think, oh my god, what just came out of Matt's mouth is so dumb, I could never do that. You know, think that, okay?

[00:31:27] Bronwyn: But I love that as well. 'cause from a schema perspective, I'm like, yes, that will activate the Happy Child

[00:31:32] Matthew: Yes! Right, just to the Um, even, um, do you know what? From like a schema perspective, this is, I'm totally derailing this, but I'm sure it's relevant somehow. um, um, one of my, adult clients and I, uh, to activate the happy child month, we got on the floor, um, we had like, you know, like kinetic sands, we had

[00:31:55] kinetic

[00:31:56] Bronwyn: love kinetic sand.

[00:31:57] Matthew: we just like,

[00:31:58] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:31:59] Matthew: Oh, wasn't okay. We kind of threw it everywhere.

[00:32:02] Bronwyn: Oh, wait, go ahead,

[00:32:04] Matthew: Um, wasn't great to clean up, uh, but it was a really fun way to be like, you know, like juvenile and just kind of free and silly girl. And, um, I guess, you know, that I'm relating this back to mindfulness, um, you know, encouraging the person to like, just be present in the moment by throwing kinetic sand.

[00:32:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, I think it's brilliant. And I think that's mindfulness as well. I love kinetic sand. I've literally got like a kilo in my office. I order too much, um, but you know, I'm not, I'm not mad or anything. I don't mind having a kilo of kinetic sand.

[00:32:35] Um, yeah. but yeah, it's being aware of your experience, but I often talk with ADHDers about like flow experiences as well, and how that's helpful.

[00:32:44] It's like a form of mindfulness practice because sometimes they can find mindfulness super boring. Um, and so I'm like getting to a flow state and notice what that's like for you, like being engaged in your hobbies, um, in the things that you love, in your passions, you know?

[00:32:55] Matthew: Yes. I find a lot, um, for a lot of my neurodivergent clients, I will engage in a lot more like physical mindfulness practice, right? Um, like colouring or just walking, like, walk, right, yeah. Um, I love that idea of play, that's actually not necessarily something I've thought about. I love that idea of in the flow of your everyday, whatever you're doing, be mindful to that. I mean, that's kind of the like big goal of mindfulness is being able to practice it within that one or two minute span, to then integrating it into everyday life. So, great way to do that actually is that flow, I like that.

[00:33:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:33:36] And I love flow states because it's like, time just seems to go so fast when you're in, you know, the time flies by when you're having fun kind of thing. Um, so it's like even noticing that it's like. You, you weren't even self conscious like during the flow state? Yeah, it's a really interesting area.

[00:33:52] Um, anyway, one thing I wanted to ask you was... so I remember doing some ACT training and Russ Harris, uh, I guess don't quote me on this because I'm not sure if it's a quote from him or if I made it up. Sometimes I make things up. Um, but I'm pretty sure he said, don't say the word mindfulness to your clients because it's got such a bad Rap, like publicly that they're going to be like mindfulness heard it before, hate it, tried it, don't like it, say to them instead, paying attention non judgmentally. So like describe it for them rather than using the word mindfulness. And my question to you is, do you have any clients who, I guess, uh, have been like, I don't like the mindfulness because that's a key part of DBT. Like, and how do you work with that?

[00:34:35] Matthew: Yes, yeah, yeah. Um, so yes, actually I have a client now who hates, when I mention mindfulness, they hate even when I mention the word DBT. Um,

[00:34:45] Bronwyn: Okay. Kind of generalized hate there.

[00:34:48] Matthew: Yeah, look, a lot of hate. A lot of hate. So the way that I personally work around it is I, I don't shy away from saying it. Um, I, I won't replace it with things like, yeah, like intentional awareness.

[00:35:00] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:35:01] Matthew: I might use that as a way to describe mindfulness, totally. Um, but I think if I replace it, I'm kind of, I'm allowing that person to avoid, but they're actually not avoiding mindfully. There's, There's not really a reason for them to avoid, uh, like, the word mindfulness.

[00:35:17] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:35:17] Matthew: I want them to understand that, like, okay, you can hear that word, and whatever it brings up for you, great. Why don't we be mindful about it?

[00:35:26] Bronwyn: Yes. Totally.

[00:35:27] Matthew: Right? Like, let's process, that annoyance that you feel towards this particular word.

[00:35:33] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:35:34] Matthew: So I find myself, in regards to if somebody doesn't like the phrase mindfulness mindfulness, I, I kind of don't give it too much weight. I, I keep using it, because people will keep using it.

[00:35:48] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:48] Matthew: I, I want to encourage that person to, over time, get more comfortable with, like, hearing it, I guess.

[00:35:54] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think I have the same approach now. I did originally try and avoid using it, but then when I started using it and clients would be like, like, been there, done that, hate it, um, I would be curious as to what it was about it. And so, you know, interestingly, sometimes what I've been finding is that, you know, they've, they've got a misconception of mindfulness as, um, meditation and I know in some meditation practices, the goal is to be still and empty your mind. Like I think transcendental meditation, like that's one of the aims, but for mindfulness, it's not to empty your mind, it's to notice what is happening in your body and mind. Um, so that's been really helpful to like get that out from them.

[00:36:35] Matthew: Yeah, I, I think, I totally agree with what you're saying here. I think one of the main points that would be really important for all therapists to take away about mindfulness, anything actually, is psychoeducation and like the importance of that. That like, you, you know, as therapists, we really do have to help somebody understand like what is this concept of mindfulness and it isn't meditation, the two are not the same thing. And so, being able to differentiate that like, one is this and one is that could actually be incredibly helpful to someone.

[00:37:08] Um, not only in their understanding, but also in their practice. So, yes, like just providing basic psycho ed or an understanding of like, this is what it is, this is what it isn't, these are the pros, these are the cons... um, can actually be really helpful, yeah.

[00:37:24] Bronwyn: Thank you. And I guess like maybe as therapists, there might be an attitude that's like, I don't need mindfulness, um, you know, I'm all put together, um, you can tell that I don't believe this because I'm really struggling to tap into the view. Um, but like, we shouldn't be messy. There's, yeah, there's, you know, okay. Does that make sense as a view?

[00:37:47] Matthew: It does, yeah.

[00:37:48] Bronwyn: Okay, sure. Um, what would you say to that, to, to a therapist who might have internalized these very understandable views that I'm a therapist, I should be all put together, so I don't need this.

[00:37:57] Matthew: Yeah, well, when I hear that what comes up for me is an urge to be, extremely compassionate with this person.

[00:38:06] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:38:07] Matthew: I don't notice any other urges. That's literally the only urge I have. That's it, I think. So what do I mean by that? Okay, um, well, I think that that relates back to myself, first of all, but, like, my own perfectionism, my own unrelenting standards, was that like, I had that judgment, I guess, that belief that well psychs are kind of meant to have it together, you know, we're meant to have all the answers and we're healed, whatever, whatever, what does that mean?

[00:38:37] So we don't need to practice mindfulness, what are we actually observing here? Um, breaking away from that, if somebody perhaps had that perception or something similar or different, I really think I would just leave with compassion of like, so, what's going on?

[00:38:55] Bronwyn: Yes.

[00:38:57] Matthew: Probably, probably similar actually to like the way my supervisor handled it back when of like, so why don't you want to practice mindfulness? Like what are you actually avoiding? What's, is it something scary? Are you perceiving a threat? What, what is that? Trying to like understand, trying to explore with that person what's going on for you that's making you like think mindfulness is, a catastrophe or something. You know, what's, what's going on there?

[00:39:27] I think that's, it's the only urge I notice is to be compassionate towards that person, that something is happening for them around mindfulness.

[00:39:37] What do you think?

[00:39:39] Bronwyn: I agree, my urge is compassion and curiosity about what's happening. And I think I'm... because I've worked a lot on This kind of mindset, like essentially my belief is that therapists are humans. Humans are messy and imperfect. That's all right. I'm a human. I'm messy and imperfect. That's cool. So I'm not, I'm not healed or anything.

[00:39:59] Um, but I guess like I noticed... maybe I don't want to say pity. Pity is not the word. Cause I feel like pity is like a distancing emotion. Um, but I feel like, uh, yeah, deep compassion for where they are. Um, and I think like. Maybe a deep sense of empathy for the isolation that might come with that. Um, and yeah, just really understanding what's happening.

[00:40:21] I think that we can all benefit from therapeutic practices. Like, I, when I was, because I have a history of mental health challenges, Literally, when I was like, in my teens, I would print out a problem solving sheet every week. Um, and I would have them on the top of my dresser, so I could grab a problem solving sheet whenever I needed it. And I would go through, like, the CBT, like, what is my problem? What are the options? What are the pros and cons? And I used to do that with myself all the time and, you know, various other therapy techniques. Um, but that was when I did a lot. And it's like, I don't feel bad for having done that. It's like, I really needed to do that technique. Um, and I will still do it now. And I don't think that reflects poorly on me as a human or a therapist.

[00:41:03] Matthew: Um, thank you for being so open and honest about that too, actually. I love that. Um, I think therapists, it would be great if therapists did that more and yes, we can, like, therapists can totally benefit from their own mindfulness practice, being able to just observe, like, their own experiences, their own life, but even just, like, um, their own counter transferences and treatment, and as you said really well, that doesn't only just relate to mindfulness. Problem solving anything to do with, anything to do with like tolerating really difficult moments. Um, you know, the like, what is it? The, the Gottman's, you know, communication style, like being to communicate effectively. Um, any of the like skills or anything in psychology, we can do ourselves, actually, it might be kind of more effective to do it ourselves before we even teach a client, because we know what the feeling is like. We know how to apply the skill, the pros and cons, blah, blah, blah. You have that experience, that like experiential knowledge, I guess is what I'm looking for.

[00:42:11] Bronwyn: I do like, I do like that aspect of it, of being able to practice skills and techniques. I do feel like that gives us greater empathy, um, for the difficulties. Like I remember making myself do a behavioral activation log for a few days and I was like, God, this shit tedious. Um, I was like, okay, so I reminded myself, like if clients, if I tell clients to do this for a week and they only bring me two days, that's fine. You know? So yeah, I do feel like that's really beneficial.

[00:42:37] So if there are therapists who are listening to this and, and they're not sure about mindfulness, but they're curious, they're interested, how would you recommend they get started?

[00:42:46] Matthew: I noticed this thought of like, something along the lines of like, do some like research, but that doesn't feel genuine. I feel like that, I feel like that's like, uh, a textbook, unrelenting standards, kind of thing.

[00:43:06] I... if I was being far more vulnerable, I think I would say to somebody, um, like, why do you want to start practicing mindfulness again?

[00:43:16] Bronwyn: Oh.

[00:43:17] Matthew: Like, I, I think that feels really right for me. I would, ask that person, like, uh, in regards to getting started with mindfulness, like, why? What is it that you're wanting to to do with mindfulness? Is there a goal? Are you just in it for the ride? Like, what is it you're wanting to get out of it? I think to understand, like, is there a purpose behind it? Or is this one of those things of like, that we were just talking about, of like, this is something I would like to experience. Is this one of those things of, I feel like I have to do this as a psych? So like, this checks off the tick box.

[00:43:58] Or am I doing this because, I don't know, I find these moments where my mind goes somewhere like what I had with that, that session with that client. My mind goes somewhere and I don't know where I go and my client has actually brought it up to me and I want to do something about that. You know, like, what is it that I'm, I'm wanting to get out of mindfulness? Why would I even do this? Why not just continue avoiding or why not just continue thinking I know my emotion or my thoughts? I feel like that would be a place to start, just thinking about it for yourself and then 100 percent taking it to supervision.

[00:44:37] Bronwyn: Cool.

[00:44:39] Matthew: I would totally encourage the person to take supervision, uh, and if I was your supervisor, um, I would do all that and I think I would be really behavioral with you and like ask you to do what I did because it worked for me. Might not work for you, come up with something else. But I think I really would encourage somebody to be a bit more behavioral and to do regular practice at certain days, certain times, certain different practices to try to like shape that behavior in. Especially if you were like me and, um, mindfulness is a new thing. It's not something up on. Yeah, that's what comes up for me.

[00:45:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, I think that's really interesting to get people's perspectives on why they, prompting them to think that mindfulness could be an option for them. Um, what would they like to get out of it? Um, what are their expectations about it? Are they expecting it to be a one off thing? And you know, yeah, then I've done it.

[00:45:39] Matthew: Even just like thinking about, um, so, you know, when you're practicing mindfulness and you're doing, uh, you know, a mindfulness of music and you've got, you know, Chapel Rowan on and you're listening to Pink Pony Club, um, I feel like she should pay me for all

[00:45:54] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:45:57] like an affiliate link.

[00:45:59] Matthew: I do, actually. Um, uh, but let's say, you know, you're, you're doing a mindfulness of music, you're listening to that song and you're just observing what comes up for you. You're being curious. Um, I think it would also be helpful to plan for, well, what if something comes up and it's like, it's kind of bad. It's something I've been avoiding for a long time. So how do I want to feel about myself? How do I want to feel about mindfulness after this? How am I going to even survive that moment when that, when I'm triggered, what am I going to do after this then? Do I just break the mindfulness? Like, what do I do? Um, I think even thinking about it from that angle too could be helpful.

[00:46:41] Bronwyn: That's a really good point because sometimes people who haven't practiced mindfulness before, we did touch on like the potential downsides of mindfulness, but it might be that, let's say you're listening to a song and you've been, uh, not paying attention to what's happening in your body and then you notice a lyric and it hits you in, in a very emotional way and you're like, gosh, I never, never really listened to that lyric and that's making me grieve over something in my life and you might be hit by a lot of emotion. Um, How are you going to support yourself in that moment, like, might there be someone you can turn to or a way that you can help soothe yourself?

[00:47:14] Matthew: Completely.

[00:47:16] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:47:16] Matthew: We know that generally speaking, um, the mind doesn't really like to go towards things that are like...

[00:47:26] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:47:26] Matthew: ...and so...

[00:47:27] Bronwyn: Makes right sense.

[00:47:28] Matthew: ...right? Flight or fight this thing, um, and if we're feeling a bit flighty, is that how we're going to perceive mindfulness now? if we now see mindfulness as a threat, how will that come across to clients, how will that impact our practice? I'm not being mindful, you know, in this 15 minute session, if I'm not being mindful about, Ooh, they just said this word and I'm frowning, frowning. That's interesting. If I'm not observing those reactions that I'm having to my clients, what are they picking up on? Right. Um, so I guess, yeah, just, not just thinking about like, you know, this is great, mindfulness, positive. I should do this. Like, what, what about like the cons to it? What about creating a plan of like, well, if this comes up, what am I going to do?

[00:48:17] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:48:18] Matthew: And again, I guess I want to stress there like, if something negative does pop up or something uncomfortable, I should say, how do I want to feel about my own products?

[00:48:27] Do I, do I still want to do it? Do I want to hate it now? Like, what, how am I going to feel about it?

[00:48:32] Bronwyn: I have an uncomfortable realization that I wish to share.

[00:48:35] Matthew: Oh, please.

[00:48:35] Bronwyn: I think I've been shitting on mindfulness with my clients for a few years. I'm sorry. I reckon, okay, here's what's showing up for me. I reckon I have wanted to be the cool therapist and I've been like, I don't do that mindfulness like what you've heard about it and I've been like trying to work around it and like I still do mindfulness practices but I never I don't think I talk about it as much as I should, and I think I should do it more. And talking about this has prompted me to remember how I got into mindfulness, which was, um, the year is 2010, um, and CDs are still a thing. I bought a CD. Have you ever heard of Jon Kabat Zinn?

[00:49:15] Matthew: Yes. Oh my god.

[00:49:20] Bronwyn: ...dutifully put it into my three CD player, automatic shuffling of CDs.

[00:49:27] Matthew: Very cool. Very cool.

[00:49:30] Bronwyn: It was a two CD album and I think it's called Wherever You Go, There You Are. And I loved it. And I loved listening to Jon Kabat Zinn's voice. I loved everything about it.

[00:49:39] Matthew: Yeah.

[00:49:40] Bronwyn: And, and it was, it was awesome. So I listened to that a lot. And then I read a about mindfulness. I can't pronounce his name, but there was like a Buddhist monk who wrote this book about mindfulness, loved it.

[00:49:51] Um, and then I was practicing mindfulness a lot and it really, really helped me. I remember around that time I was experiencing a lot of anxiety and I thought that I had to get rid of anxiety and mindfulness was like, you can be with anxiety. And I remember that being like really revolutionary for me.

[00:50:08] Matthew: Oh my gosh.

[00:50:09] Bronwyn: So yeah, I think, okay, so I feel like my realization from this topic has been like, I think I've, I think I've, I've underestimated like, you know, like how, how good it is and how, um, yeah, I think I've been unnecessarily like shitting on it a bit.

[00:50:25] Matthew: Oh, I love this moment so much.

[00:50:28] Bronwyn: I'm gonna, okay, so I'm gonna try and not shit on it and I'm gonna lean into it because I think I'm inspired by you being like, you don't stray away from using the word mindfulness and I think I need to lean into it.

[00:50:39] Matthew: Yes, I love.

[00:50:40] Bronwyn: So thank you, Matthew. Um, um, yep.

[00:50:46] Matthew: Um, fantastic feedback, thank you. Wow, I guess I'm, I'm feeling quite like in awe of you. So yeah, I feel really proud of you. I, yes, I personally, I love it when people, um, are vulnerable in any way that's comfortable for them. That, like, draws into that person immediately.

[00:51:05] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:51:06] Matthew: And I love that, uh, I love that observation, like, I think I've been shitting on mindfulness and this is what I would like to do with that right? Um, I totally want to encourage you, like, throw yourself in. Like, into the deep end now.

[00:51:22] Bronwyn: I think I will. Yeah, my poor clients over like the next few months. I'm going to be like, have you heard the word of mindfulness?

[00:51:30] Matthew: Heard the word? Oh no. Oh.

[00:51:35] Bronwyn: I'll be more, uh, I'll be better. Promise I won't actually say that.

[00:51:41] Matthew: I don't know, I'm really proud of you for observing that like, unmindful avoidance, or non mindful, whatever. Um, but observing that avoidance of mindfulness. And remembering that like, it is okay to mindfully avoid, that's so acceptable. Um, and so I, I love this.

[00:52:00] Oh my God, I'm so excited to see where you go with this.

[00:52:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, wow, thank, thank you for giving me the confidence to lean in. I probably wouldn't have had that without your, I guess, without your confidence of using it with your client. So, thank you and using it with yourself.

[00:52:13] So, Matthew, like, what do you want listeners to take away most from this conversation today?

[00:52:19] Matthew: I would say what I would like for listeners to take away from this conversation today is that mindfulness is not bullshit. It is not an artsy fartsy sitting around the campfire. It's not a tick box system. It's not just another fad. It's not a psychology fad. Mindfulness is very real and mindfulness has helped me realize things about myself that are the most beautiful things about my character. Mindfulness has helped me to be self compassionate and actually love myself. So, without mindfulness, I wouldn't, actually, I don't think I would be in the place I am. I don't, I really don't. So, mindfulness has kind of saved me in a way.

[00:53:11] Um, And I would just really love for viewers, I don't know how to stress this, I would love for viewers to, um, kind of take a step back and think about, uh, you know, if I don't practice mindfulness, what would I like to get out of it? Why would I like to get anything out of it? Da da da da da, you know, just, just taking a step back and thinking, what is mindfulness for me then? Um, it, it's kind of saved me, so I would love for people to, um, Give it a go.

[00:53:44] Bronwyn: Beautiful sentiments. Thank you so much, Matthew, for coming on the podcast and sharing your personal and professional experiences. It's been hugely insightful, um, and I hope listeners gained a lot from listening.

[00:53:55] Matthew: Thank you. I hope so too.

[00:53:57] Bronwyn: And if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:54:01] Matthew: I'll be sending you my professional email address, um, uh, where you can send me questions if you want to. Um, but if you're also, uh, looking for supervision, uh, or consultation, whatever, um, you can contact me there. It's the best place to grab me.

[00:54:21] Bronwyn: Nice. I will pop that link in the show notes and yeah, feel free listeners to hit Matthew up for supervision. I know sometimes listeners get in contact with me for supervision. I do not offer supervision, but I would totally recommend Matthew as a supervisor. I don't even know how he is a supervisor. I just trust him that he's probably awesome. So you better not, not be awesome cause that would suck. Okay. think that's enough for me.

[00:54:44] Matthew: I kind of love that.

[00:54:46] Bronwyn: If you enjoyed this episode or any of our previous ones, do leave us a five star rating and review really helps new listeners find it. And it's just nice to see. Well, that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to the Mental Work Podcast.

[00:54:56] Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.