What does a forensic psychologist do? (with Amy Brandler)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are delving into the fascinating world of forensic psychology. From criminal profiling to witness testimony, forensic psychs play a really critical role in the psychology profession, and we want to know exactly what they do and what their journey looks like and how to become one.

[00:00:30] And here to help us unpack it is our guest, Amy Brandler. Hi, Amy.

[00:00:35] Amy: Hi Bron, thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:37] Bronwyn: My pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. And Amy, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:00:44] Amy: Uh, my name is Amy Brandler. I am a forensic psychologist. my non psychology passion, well, I have a one year old and a three year old. So at the moment, all of my non psychology time is taken up with parenting two little boys.

[00:01:00] Bronwyn: Lovely. Awesome. And Amy, I reckon today we're going to learn a lot about your journey and what you do for work and what that looks like. And I'm going to ask you a few questions about forensic psychology, obviously, but there's, I don't know much about what forensic psychs do, to be honest. So I'm probably going to ask some like curious questions.

[00:01:20] Amy: Cool. Thank you. That's why I came.

[00:01:22] Bronwyn: Excellent. Can we start off with you telling us about your journey into forensic psych and what drew you into this area in particular?

[00:01:31] Amy: Yeah, for sure. Um, I guess I've always been interested in human behavior, right? Like all of us have been. Uh, I was always a real goody two shoes growing up and I could never understand why anyone would, uh, commit crime or, You know, do anything that was against the law. And I always wanted to find out. It was just this kind of passion, uh, to know why people would commit crime.

[00:01:55] Um, and yes, of course, I was always obsessed with law and order and CSI. Um, my mum one time in year 11 brought home some uni, uh, guidebooks or handbooks and I read that you can do a Master of Forensic Psychology. And I was like, wow, someone will, you know, Pay you to go and figure out why someone committed a crime. Isn't that just the most amazing job? So I signed up then and there

[00:02:18] Bronwyn: That's pretty cool. Like, how come you didn't consider, like, if you're into law and order, you didn't consider, like, becoming a police person or, like, a splatter analysis type individual?

[00:02:30] Amy: Gosh I really never oh, no, I did consider Becoming a police officer. I I felt I couldn't deal with the blood. I assumed there would be blood involved being a cop.

[00:02:40] Bronwyn: Yeah, there's probably blood. Um, so I guess like your passion for human behavior and just really understanding why somebody would commit a crime really drew you forward.

[00:02:50] Amy: Yeah, basically. And then, of course, once I learnt a bit more about the factors that lead people to commit crime, which, uh, hopefully we can touch on today, I really wanted to help those people.

[00:03:01] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, absolutely. So did you do the, what was your study journey pathway? Undergrad, honours?

[00:03:09] Amy: Uh, yes, I did, uh, the three year undergrad and then the fourth year in honors. Um, and then I did the two year master of forensic psychology, which is offered at University of New South Wales. It's one of the two postgraduate forensic programs still on offer in Australia. So it has survived.

[00:03:26] Bronwyn: Only two programs.

[00:03:27] Amy: Two programs, Bron. Uh, the, The Master of Forensic Psychology in UNSW and then there is a Combined Clinical and Forensic Doctorate here at Swinburne in Melbourne.

[00:03:39] Bronwyn: Oh, that's really sad, isn't it, that there's only two programs?

[00:03:41] Amy: It is really sad and there's so much need for Forensic Psychologists.

[00:03:45] Bronwyn: Oh, is there?

[00:03:46] Amy: Mmm, absolutely.

[00:03:48] Bronwyn: Ah, that's no good. Could you tell us a bit about what your placements were during your studies? And, um, I'm interested in your registrar program, like, work as well.

[00:03:57] Amy: Yeah, sure. Uh, I did one placement in a juvenile justice facility, um, in the outskirts of New South Wales. I did one placement in family therapy. Which was fascinating, and I did one placement in our uni clinic. Um, obviously as we, as we all have done. Um, but the UNSW forensic clinic was held in a community corrections service office. Um, so where clients who are on parole or on community orders would come in and seek treatment. And then my fourth placement was at a clinical and forensic private practice in the Sydney CBD.

[00:04:33] Bronwyn: So what were the highlights of those placements? And maybe, were there any lowlights that you found difficult?

[00:04:40] Amy: Oh gosh, I'm in my anxiety. That would have been a low, a low light. Um, that was, that was really difficult to manage. Um, You know, feeling like this. I think I was 22 at the time. Um, this tiny little student coming in, not knowing anything and, uh, going into prisons and talking to people that had committed sexual offenses and really heinous, violent offenses.

[00:05:04] Uh, so just kind of, I guess, facing that and getting over my fears, uh, that was, um, A big part of placement, what I reflect on now. And again, also, I guess that's probably a highlight, right? Is being able to actually do the work. I mean, we go through honors and undergrad for so long and we just want to do some work. So that's where a master's can be amazing.

[00:05:26] Bronwyn: Yeah. I wonder if doing those placements and maybe your subsequent work experience changed how you thought about clients who commit crimes or sex offences.

[00:05:36] Amy: Oh, absolutely. You know, and I'm the first to admit that I came into it with a really naive view and this really kind of, I wouldn't say dehumanizing, but I was very much looking at these individuals like textbooks that I just wanted to study, you know, uh, but going through the placements, uh, and the program and learning more, as I said, about the risk factors and the reasons why people commit crime. A lot of these people that I met, uh, were in situations that I would have found myself in for sure, if I had had their background. You know, and it just, it gave me so much more empathy, uh, and so much more compassion for, um, where they had ended up in their life. Obviously not excusing their behaviour that they had done to land them in the criminal justice system, but just that want to help them. I guess it was really brought out in me.

[00:06:22] Bronwyn: Do you feel like that could be a critical skill that forensic psychs need to have? Like that empathy rather than seeing them as a textbook.

[00:06:31] Amy: I think treatment. Yes. There are a lot of forensic psychs that just focus on assessment because they still find that, uh, they still have that intellectual need and they don't really want to engage in the treatment, the long term, sort of really getting to, to understand these people.

[00:06:48] Um, and you know, that's, that's not a judgment. That's still, there's great, excellent work in the assessment field. And I think it's really important, uh, but definitely in the treatment space. Um, you do, you really need some empathy and compassion. I mean, but we all do as psychologists.

[00:07:05] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so maybe that leads us to what does a forensic psych do? Because I didn't know that there were some forensic psychs that only do assessment and then there are others who do treatment. Um, could you walk us through what you do like in a typical day or week?

[00:07:21] Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm in private practice now. Um, for the first, about 10 years of my career, I was with the government, with Corrections Victoria. Uh, at the moment I do both assessment and treatment. So when we say assessment, we mean risk assessment. So assessing the risk of re offending.

[00:07:39] So a lot of people will come into psychology thinking risk is all about suicide and self harm and obviously that's a part of our work but when we say risk we're talking about their risk of doing the crime again or doing something else.

[00:07:51] Bronwyn: Hmm.

[00:07:51] Amy: Uh, at the moment I do a lot of general offending assessments. So for individual, individuals who have been charged with a crime, but not yet convicted. And then once people are convicted, then you're able to do a risk assessment. So you're able to look at the factors in their life and figure out what risk level they are for doing it again or doing something similar.

[00:08:14] Bronwyn: Are those reports used as part of sentencing? Like, do they ever influence how much time in jail or what kind of sentencing that person receives? Or is that a different part of forensic psych?

[00:08:28] Amy: That would be more pre conviction. So a pre sentence report. Um, Bron, you're asking tough questions.

[00:08:35] Bronwyn: Sorry.

[00:08:36] Amy: That's okay. It's just, it's really tricky when they get like charged with a crime, but they haven't been found guilty.

[00:08:42] Bronwyn: I'll ask this because like I'm asking Amy some difficult questions unknowingly, but it's because I don't know anything about the criminal justice system. And I guess I'm wondering, like, was that hard for you to wrap your head around, around how it works and your role within that?

[00:08:57] Amy: Yes, definitely. And there's all these acronyms and terms that people use that you don't really know what they're talking about. There's a remand, pre sentence, rolling group, closed group. There's so many acronyms.

[00:09:11] Um, there's all the acronyms within our system. So, uh, every offender in Victoria gets filtered through the Corrections Victoria team. Uh, so everyone has a point of contact with them. So there is all these acronyms within the Corrections Victoria system that people need to know. Um, the HIVIP, the, uh, BLP, the MMP. So it's, there's a lot to get your head around.

[00:09:36] Bronwyn: Yeah. uh, are you a person who loves learning? Like, is it like, oh great, I can learn all these new things, or do you find it quite overwhelming at times?

[00:09:44] Amy: Yeah, but again, I mean, it's, it's the job that you chose to do, right? The, that you're interested in. So, and there's acronyms I'm sure, and I haven't worked in the public hospital system, but I'm sure it's the same. Um, yeah.

[00:09:59] Bronwyn: There's, yeah, lots of acronyms everywhere. So, I guess coming back to what you do, you do assessments and you do treatment, um, is there a reason why you chose to do both? Is it like variation in work or another reason?

[00:10:10] Amy: Yeah, in the private practice system, uh, treatment of forensic clients, there's not that much. So, um, that's the kind of demand for the forensic work in the private system is more assessment. Um, you get a lot of lawyers calling you up asking you to do an assessment for someone for court, uh, or there's the family court assessments where you'll have, um, child custody battles and they, they'll need you to do an assessment involving who is best placed to care for the child, those sorts of things.

[00:10:40] In the community, in the private practice setting, a lot of forensic clients can't afford to pay. Um, and And a lot of forensic psychologists can't afford to bulk a bill, so there is a bit of a mismatch in the need there. Um, it's gotten a lot better obviously with the induction of the NDIS, a lot of our clients are on NDIS funding. Uh, but there is still a large gap of people that, um, are that missing middle.

[00:11:05] Bronwyn: Yeah. And what are the favorite parts of your work? What do you love the most?

[00:11:10] Amy: I love seeing change, and there's a lot less change in the forensic system. You know, you're going, you're taking someone from, say, 20 percent functioning. to say 40 to 50 percent functioning, as opposed to my experience in the, with clinical work and private practices, you're taking someone from 70 to 80 percent functioning to 90 to 100 percent functioning. So there's still change. It looks different, uh, but it's very meaningful.

[00:11:39] Bronwyn: Yeah. Like, do you feel like, even though that change might look different, that the difference that you're is, is a difference. Like, do you feel like your work has purpose?

[00:11:49] Amy: Absolutely. And that's what keeps people going, I suppose. It's tough work, but it's amazing. It's amazing the kind of just the pride and the sense of joy that you can have that I have felt. When I've realised that I have made someone feel cared for and I've made someone feel heard. And they've never felt that before in their life.

[00:12:10] Bronwyn: That's amazing. And I'm glad that there's people like you who can do that work.

[00:12:15] Amy: Thank you. I remember one time, I just finished running a group therapy programme for violent offenders in a prison with a co facilitator. And at the end of the group therapy program, to celebrate that these men have finished something and completed something successfully, you had a little barbecue lunch for them and they got food that they wouldn't normally get, uh, in prison, just, um, hamburgers and nice salads and things like that.

[00:12:44] Uh, and we, me and my co facilitator, we set up the desks like a table and we laid cutlery out and plates, uh, and we had cups of juice and we put all the food in the middle and we all sat down, uh, ourselves in the nine, uh, Uh, men who committed violent offences and one of the, one of the men said, Wow, this feels like we're a family. I've never felt like this before. And it was just so beautiful. I felt so, uh, special hearing that.

[00:13:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's really sweet.

[00:13:13] Amy: And so sad too that he had never experienced that. You know, he was in his 40s and...

[00:13:18] Bronwyn: that is also really sad.

[00:13:19] Amy: Yeah, so these are the kind of men we're working with, you know, and I guess that's, that's something that I really want other people to know is that, yes, there are psychopaths, there are violent sadists, there are really, really, uh, difficult people out there with incredibly disordered personalities, but that's not the majority of the work.

[00:13:38] The majority of the work is people that have been sexually, physically, emotionally abused, been neglected, they have suffered a lot of hardship in their lives and they've turned to drugs, they've turned to crime as a way to cope with that.

[00:13:53] Bronwyn: Thank you for sharing that because that was one of the misconceptions that I wanted to talk with you about because I think there is a misconception that it does look like law and order or it does look like Hannibal Lecter and that's everybody that makes up the criminal justice system, um, and you're going to get narcissistic folk who are going to push your buttons all the time and you're going to break down crying.

[00:14:12] Amy: I mean, there's a very small subset of people in this state who have, uh, as I said, who have committed really, really horrible things over and over again and have such disordered personalities or they have significant cognitive impairment, uh, that completely takes away their ability to feel responsible for their behavior.

[00:14:37] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Amy: And I've sat across from some of them and it's really tricky. It's really difficult. Because you feel like there's absolutely nothing you can do that would stop this person from doing it again if they were to get out.

[00:14:48] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:14:49] Amy: But there are laws in place to prevent that. So there are people that will not leave prison. Uh, so hopefully that helps make the community feel a little bit safer.

[00:15:00] Bronwyn: No, I hope so. And I'm wondering how you cope with that personally. Like, as somebody who was drawn into this area, not liking people who committed crimes. I wondered if you get a sense of hopelessness or helplessness that, You can make an impact and I don't know, does it kind of dampen your view of humanity? How do you cope with this? Kind of big questions. Go for it.

[00:15:21] Amy: They are big questions. Does it dampen my view on humanity?

[00:15:24] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, I guess like more specifically, I would be asking like, how do you process sessions that are difficult? Or when you're sitting across the table from someone who might have a difficult set of interactions that bring up stuff in you? How do you process that?

[00:15:43] Amy: I think it's about holding on to hope. You know, and, and believing that there is still good in someone, no matter what they've done, you know, and I really believe that everyone deserves a second chance to make their lives have meaning and to do something good to bring some good into this world and that's something that I talk with my clients about is about their debt to society, you know, and repaying that somehow in any way that they can.

[00:16:10] Um, I process that through, you know, the usual self care ways and talking to colleagues, but also I do think it's very important to have a balance and to really check in with yourself if you feel any sort of burnout. happening, you know, around this forensic work. I once had a supervisor tell me that at the beginning of every year, she checked in with herself around, do I want to keep doing this forensic work?

[00:16:33] Bronwyn: Wow.

[00:16:34] Amy: I think that that's really important. And that's one of the reasons why I balance it with, uh, my clinical clients, my, my gorgeous, uh, anxious girls.

[00:16:43] Bronwyn: I'm glad to hear that there are strategies that you can use to help you process and really, I guess, continue to do the work. And so you've mentioned to me off air that you are passionate about sex offender risk assessment and treatment and I wondered why is that? What interests you about that?

[00:17:01] Amy: It's something that I, I didn't go into this field thinking that I would be passionate about it, that I would enjoy working with sex offenders, but that was my first job, um, out of masters and where I did my endorsement program for forensic psychology, uh, was working in the sex offender team with Corrections Victoria.

[00:17:21] And I'm not really sure. It, it's just It's just really interesting and the people are really fascinating and a lot of them, uh, have very interesting attitudes that is really enjoyable to try and challenge.

[00:17:42] Bronwyn: Ah, cool.

[00:17:43] Amy: And it's really, I don't know, it just kind of draws you in. And a lot of my colleagues have said that they're like, sometimes I leave, but I always come back to working with sex offenders and it's just, yeah, the, the way that they make sense of the world and the way that they.

[00:17:58] Have conceptualized their offenses is just so fascinating and so interesting sitting across from someone who just genuinely believes that their offense was the right thing to do. You know, when it's just, it's so heinous and... a lot of them also on the other coin, a lot of them are very distressed by it. And that's something that I find really meaningful to work with is these people that have this attraction and they're so upset by it. They are so distressed by it. I worked with one man who was in his 20s and he was like, I'm just going to have to never have children because I'm so worried that I will be sexually attracted to my kids. And we had to process all this grief and loss around not being able to have kids

[00:18:39] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:18:40] Wow. So, um, am I hearing right that, okay. So sometimes there's people who come in with sex offences and then they believe that, okay, this was the right thing to do, but they are also simultaneously distressed.

[00:18:55] Amy: No, sorry, that's two groups of people. There's definitely, there's definitely people that do not want to bar review, uh, and that want to keep doing it, unfortunately.

[00:19:05] Bronwyn: Yeah. That's really interesting. I, um, can I ask a bit more about that first group of people who, um, have that worldview that, um, this was the right thing to do?

[00:19:16] Amy: Please.

[00:19:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I'm just wondering how you go about that, because then, when I hear that, I'm like, okay, they have this reality, and it sounds like they're pretty set on that reality being the correct approach. And then as the psychologist, you're thinking, no, I'm in this reality. And what is the objective there, is it to change their reality? Like, I don't know what to do.

[00:19:40] Amy: Well, again, we're focusing on risk factors, right? So calling, so what we're describing is what the literature would call antisocial attitudes, which is a big risk factor that we know, uh, that if someone has antisocial attitude. It increases their chances of committing another offence. So yes, we're trying to reduce their antisocial attitudes. We're trying to challenge them, uh, in the best way that we can.

[00:20:06] Bronwyn: Do you find that that work can be successful?

[00:20:09] Amy: Yeah, definitely. More often than not, I would say it's the other way around, uh, with this, with this group. Um, but I have, I have had, uh, treatment clients where you're able to challenge that, you're able to break down that mask. Um, challenge that and...

[00:20:28] Bronwyn: you ever feel frustrated?

[00:20:30] Amy: yeah, of course, absolutely.

[00:20:31] Bronwyn: Okay. Yeah.

[00:20:34] Amy: Only human. We can't sit across from someone who's saying, yes, of course that girl wanted me to do this and not feel like a bit disgusted. Uh, but, but you know, my, I want to do is prevent further victims.

[00:20:48] Bronwyn: So you kind of got this big picture purpose and thinking.

[00:20:51] Amy: Yes, I'd, yeah, try to, in the back of my head.

[00:20:55] Bronwyn: No, that's a really, it's such an interesting area and it's so, um, niche. And I think like a lot of psychologists are quite scared, scared off by that area. Um, and I just wondered, like reflecting on that, like, do you think there are any personal attributes about you that make you more able to like work with this population?

[00:21:13] Amy: I'd say that personally, I'm quite a direct person, uh, and I think that you really need that level of I'm not going to take your bullshit with, uh, sex offenders and also other kind of anti social, violent offenders. I do a lot of supervision and I have psychologists come to me in general private practice, but they might have a client that is kind of screaming a bit forensic to them. Uh, or, you know, they've done a personality assessment and they're a bit high on psychopathy or antisociality.

[00:21:44] And a lot of what I see is that these practitioners, of course, very well meaningly are being very warm and very supportive and they're not challenging. As much as they need to, because this, this person is going to take you for a ride if, if you present like that. So having the ability to, and the confidence. And again, this comes with time, of course, for psychologists. It's, there's no way I would have had the confidence in my first couple of years out to be able to be as direct and challenging as I am now.

[00:22:15] But to be able to have that confidence to step in and be like, hang on, what you just said is ridiculous. You know, uh, and to be able to not be afraid that they're going to do something, not being afraid that there's going to be a rupture. That's a really important part of forensic psych work.

[00:22:34] Bronwyn: Wow. So you would be like the expert on, I guess, empathically confronting people.

[00:22:41] Amy: I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert, but thank you Bron. I try, I try and empathically tell people that they're bullshitting me.

[00:22:49] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's a really great skill. Nice work.

[00:22:52] Amy: I find that enjoyable. That's my style of practice. You know, I like that. And, and I'm a bit, obviously I don't bring the same persona into my clinical clients, but I am very direct and I'm not, I'm not a very kind of, I don't do supportive counselling, I guess.

[00:23:06] Bronwyn: Well, that was going to be my next question. I did wonder whether you do work with victims of crime as well.

[00:23:11] Amy: Yes, I do. Uh,

[00:23:14] Bronwyn: Can you tell us the approach that might be different?

[00:23:18] Amy: well, obviously you have to be, you have to have a lot of warmth and you have to provide a lot of support in a softer way, I think, than working with perpetrators. But I also come from the same avenue around processing their trauma. Because both groups have had trauma. So, I'm very big on making sure that we do the work to actually do that and actually Uh, get to your traumas and process them.

[00:23:45] And that I do that with both perpetrators and victims with perpetrators. You're just holding that other dialectic around them also being a victim and being a perpetrator and needing to make sure you tease apart their cognitions around that and making sure that they, um, don't take responsibility for their victimization, but that they do take responsibility for their offending.

[00:24:08] And I guess, um, Yeah, and I guess that, you know, as I'm talking, I'm thinking that is something that I really enjoy about this work. And one of the reasons why I'm still in it is it's so complex and I love being able to tease apart that sort of spiderweb of, of cognitions and of emotions and of victimizations.

[00:24:27] Bronwyn: Yeah. No, it's, it's really interesting as you're talking about it. I'm like, Hmm, this is, this is cool

[00:24:31] Amy: Yeah. Come join us, Bron.

[00:24:33] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's, but it also sounds so complex. I'm going to ask you some questions because I see so much stuff about forensic psych. But I want to ask this first, which is that personality disorders are pretty entwined with, um, criminal behavior, a lot of the time and I'm just wondering like how you navigate treating people with, um, personality or like enduring, like personality characteristic difficulties, like narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder.

[00:25:00] Amy: Yeah, definitely. I mean, majority of them have antisocial PD, uh, as well as one other, um, BPD a lot, as you mentioned. When they're super severe, with some of the more entrenched, uh, people that I've worked with who've been committing crime for, you know, 30, 40 years. Uh, it's really about that relationship building, you know, and these people have PDs because they've never had a secure attachment. And they've never had a stable relationship with someone, uh, that is, uh, that they have, that there's mutual respect for, you know, and I still, obviously, yes, they've committed a crime, but I still have respect for them. I think we should always respect our clients.

[00:25:43] Um, so a lot of it is around relationship building and just focusing on this mini world that you've built in the therapy room for them. Because the idea is that through doing that, you will help them relate to other people better that you can't do in a way that you can teach with other clinical clients. You know, it has to be really in the room. It has to be really, uh, focusing on your affect.

[00:26:10] You know, I've had sessions with, with guys where I haven't done any sort of treatment planning. They come in, Uh, on purpose, there have definitely been times where I haven't done treatment planning by accident. Uh, but there are times when I haven't done any treatment planning and they walk into the room and just the first two minute interaction with me, that is what we will spend the next 50 minutes focusing on. Because they have just said or behaved in such a way that's, that's inappropriate. And that's so PD, so personality disordered that I'm like, no, pause. What is going on here? Let's really focus on how you just really acted to me and how I reacted to you.

[00:26:46] Bronwyn: Wow. So are you like trained in psychoanalysis or like that kind of relating? Like what is your favorite approach here?

[00:26:54] Amy: Ooh, I haven't done any psychoanalysis. I'd love to though. I've done a lot of MBT, um, and schema. Schema is really big on

[00:27:01] Bronwyn: Okay. Yeah. I was thinking like, Oh, re parenting, but I didn't know if you were into schema. Yeah.

[00:27:06] Amy: Oh my God. I love schema. Uh, schema. And then I use a lot of EMDR to process the traumas. Um, yeah. And then, uh, a lot of ACT as well, um, sort of to build that, build those values and build that healthy life that they don't know what it looks like. Especially some of the young guys.

[00:27:25] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I wonder, do you get, um, like part of limited reparenting can be setting healthy boundaries and limit setting. And I wondered if you get some pushback from people about the boundaries of the therapeutic relationship and how you might manage that.

[00:27:39] Amy: Absolutely, you know, and I get that with personality disordered clients who are not forensic. Uh, I feel like that's, that's a big part of a personality disorder is not really understanding appropriate boundaries.

[00:27:51] Bronwyn: Cause I guess sometimes it can be like, it might be a bit frustrating cause they're just like pushing and pushing and pushing. And I guess just as a limited re parent, you just have to, uh, be patient and keep on being like, no, this is it. This is it. This is it.

[00:28:04] Amy: Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's like that. Yeah, it's, and again, this is, this is a difference, right? Between forensic and clinical work is it takes so long to see the change. And you have to be patient, but when you do see the change and when you have persisted session after session, with this goal in mind that, you know, I want to really change and really help this very severely personality disordered man. You have that goal. And you see change after a year, after two years, after five years. Um, that's, it's amazing.

[00:28:38] Bronwyn: That, that is amazing. Could you just share with us any memorable like experiences from your career that, that have really influenced your approach and, and just stood out for you?

[00:28:50] Amy: Sure. I remember, doing an assessment, uh, on one man in prison. So he had been sentenced and convicted, uh, for a murder. And, I was doing a risk assessment, so I was trying to figure out his risk level of reoffending. I went and I saw him in prison, you've got keys, you've got a just duress alarm, you're very safe, uh, in prison and he was so charming and he was so fascinating and I just sat and talked to him for three and a half hours and I was having a really great time. It was so interesting. I was like, yes. And I was totally. Uh, really believing everything that he was saying, you know, and believing that he had been so wronged by the system and so wronged by other people in his life, uh, and that's what led to him to commit this murder.

[00:29:47] And then I went back to my desk and I was typing up notes and I was like, wow, I am writing so many positive things about this person that has killed someone. Like what? That's something's going on here. This is a bit strange. And then, so I went back two weeks later to assess him again. I was like, and this is the beauty of working in prison is we have so much access to the, the offenders all the time. Uh, and he was totally different and he was aggressive. I felt a little bit of fear. He was so slimy and deceitful and manipulative.

[00:30:18] And I was like, Oh, This is, this is the forensic work, really, down in the, in the depths of it. Uh, this is how different someone can be when they want to manipulate you, you know, and they see a young woman who is wanting to believe them, has this optimism, you know, about change and hope. Um, so, it was like the longest assessment I've ever written. Um, but it just really informed my approach of, I guess, Uh, still having that hope and still believing in the clients but knowing that with this forensic population you can never be too careful and you can never let your guard down and you always have to have your boundaries up.

[00:30:59] Bronwyn: Um, I've got, I've only got a few more questions for you. I wanted to move on to things that non forensic psychs should be consulting with their forensic psych colleagues about. So this question is inspired from me seeing things on Facebook groups and then people post being like, my client has asked me for a court report. I'm thinking of writing it. And then everyone jumps in being like, No, go talk to a forensic psych. So are there things that you say that you're like, no, you should go talk to a forensic psych?

[00:31:30] Amy: Obviously, I think it really depends on the context and why a client would be asking you to write a report. If they're asking for a treatment summary report, then That's perfectly fine. And the, um, psychologist should feel comfortable to write that. They should be aware that it might go to court and that they might have to defend themselves based on that report.

[00:31:52] But we should always be writing things. Anyone should always be writing things with the assumption that it might end up in court because it's not just forensic clients um, that end up in court or someone, well, your client might become a forensic client just to scare people.

[00:32:06] Bronwyn: Is there anything that non forensic psych shouldn't be doing in private practice where you're like, no, come consult with me.

[00:32:12] Amy: To be honest, nothing major comes to my mind. I think if, obviously if they, start to get unsure about their formulation or they start to feel like they're being a bit hoodwinked or manipulated, um, I think they should come see a forensic psych and get some supervision around what might be happening because there might be some, as we've said, anti social PD flavors going on. There might be, an antisocial history that you haven't really checked in with because people often don't really think to ask about that sort of stuff.

[00:32:46] Uh, there are questions that I think are important to ask if anyone's ever talking about their sexual history or if they're having difficulties in kind of a sexual domain. Uh, I would be asking about pornography use and, um, sexual attraction, those sorts of things. Um, that I guess a lot of non clinic, non forensic psychs, uh, might not be aware of.

[00:33:08] Bronwyn: Okay. Is there any other advice that you would give as a forensic psych to non forensic psychs?

[00:33:14] Amy: The importance of personality testing, I think, in a lot of my supervisions, that doesn't seem to get discussed enough, uh, in private practices. And I think it's really important, especially when we're starting out, you know, we, we don't yet have a great idea of Who we are in the room and who they are in the room and where the energy kind of stops and where the energy overlaps.

[00:33:40] And I think doing some personality testing is really important to, for your formulation and really important to understand what might be going on in the room and why you might be leaving sessions, feeling a little bit unsettled or feeling like you don't really know what you're doing or on the other side of the coin, why you might be leaving feeling like you're doing a really amazing job. And then, uh, you kind of look at your notes or you kind of realize, Hey, actually, maybe, maybe this person actually hasn't gotten any better after a really long time.

[00:34:10] Bronwyn: So you feel like, uh, personality assessments can really help gather some data that can help answer those questions? Yeah.

[00:34:16] Amy: Yeah, definitely. And then if there's any hint of psychopathy or any antisociality, uh, or narcissism, I would recommend consulting with a forensic psych.

[00:34:27] Bronwyn: Nice. And what are, are there any common mistakes that you see early career forensic psychs do that maybe you even made early in your career and you're like, yeah, it'd be good to avoid that.

[00:34:40] Amy: It can be really amazing to think that, yes, I'm going to change this person's life, but just a reminder that it takes a really long time and that sometimes they want you to think that. But I do also want to stress to any early career psychologists that, and forensic psychologists, that they're doing an amazing job and it's such an amazing career to have and you can really make a difference in people's lives.

[00:35:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, I have a huge amount of respect for my forensic psych colleagues. I think they do an incredible job that not a lot of us in the profession necessarily have the emotional capacity, um, and differences to work with some of these populations. Um, so yeah, I think it's really special and needed work.

[00:35:24] Amy: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, especially now with the reduction in post grad speciality programs, like obviously you can go into forensic psychology regardless of, uh, where you did your master's or what you did your

[00:35:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:35:36] Amy: Um, but, uh, yeah, there is such a need, you know, and people keep committing crime. Um, and again, you know, forensic psychologists, we can work at any point in the criminal justice system. There's a lot of early intervention work we can do. Uh, a lot of work when they've been charged, but they haven't been convicted and then work in prison itself. And then a lot of work helping people leave prison and reintegrate back into society, because that's a big challenge for them. You know, they've done the therapy in prison, they've done the work and they want to, a lot of them want to get back into society and make some meaning, but they can't because society is often not set up for that.

[00:36:14] Bronwyn: Totally. Um, so Amy, what advice would you give to early career psychs who are interested in pursuing a career in forensic psychology, but unsure of how to go about it, where to start?

[00:36:26] Amy: I guess I'd say look into the postgrad programs, uh, that are on offer, but know that if you don't get in or if you don't want to and you want to do the clinical or another, um, postgrad program instead, then that doesn't absolutely doesn't stop you. Uh, there are some really good. Forensic podcasts out there. Um, yeah, the Forensic Minds Australia podcast.

[00:36:50] Bronwyn: Oh, nice.

[00:36:51] Amy: Yes. That's run by the, um, people that run the Swinburne program. Um,

[00:36:56] Bronwyn: That's so cool. I'm going to link that. I'll link that on the show notes.

[00:36:58] Amy: Yeah, that's great. Uh, there is a schema therapy, a forensic schema therapy podcast run. I know. Um, there's some amazing people doing really amazing work in that space. Uh, called, sorry, it's run by Lars Madsden and it's called Beyond the Crime.

[00:37:17] Bronwyn: Cool.

[00:37:18] Amy: yeah, it's, it's really good. Highly recommend.

[00:37:21] Bronwyn: Um, random question. Do you love like crime thrillers or because it's like your work and stuff, you just like can't binge on that? Yeah.

[00:37:28] Amy: I actually can't now. Hey, like, I feel sad for my old self. Cause I used to love it so much. Uh, it's, it's too much life work now. Um, And

[00:37:40] Bronwyn: that's a shame.

[00:37:41] Amy: I know, I just want to come home and watch The Bachelor or The Kardashians or something that is just not going to be anything at all to do with that field.

[00:37:50] Bronwyn: Oh, that's a shame. So no, like NDIS. Oh my God. NDIS NCIS.

[00:37:57] Amy: I guess I just want to comment on what we, like, With what we've just talked about around the TV shows and the profiling, you know, a lot of people think that it's profiling that we go up to, um, crime scenes and, you know, we look at the crime scene and we're like, yes, it was definitely this age, this person that lives on this street. Um, but it's not like that at all.

[00:38:17] Bronwyn: Okay. Sure.

[00:38:18] Amy: Really only in America that they do profiling. Um, yeah, yeah. They don't do it here. Um,

[00:38:24] Bronwyn: What do they do instead? Do they just like not do it and then they rely on other stuff?

[00:38:27] Amy: I think so.

[00:38:29] Bronwyn: Oh, okay. Cool.

[00:38:30] Amy: At least that's my understanding. I'm definitely not, um, definitely not a police officer. So I could be saying the wrong things, but I know that it's not what any, like, I don't know any forensic psychs that do it in Australia and it's a small field, so we all know each other pretty well.

[00:38:46] Uh, yeah, so it's not profiling. It's not like the movies or the TV shows. Um, it's, It's really about helping people that no one else has really helped them before and that they've started off life on the wrong foot and they've turned to drugs or crime to manage them.

[00:39:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Amy, can you tell us a bit about mandated treatment? So clients who are. Forced, I guess, to come to see you.

[00:39:11] Amy: Yeah, so that's a lot in the prison system where, uh, I mean, it's not technically mandated. They don't frog march them down to their therapy room, but if they don't, uh, complete some therapy, then they won't get parole. So a lot of prisoners feel very pushed into it. A lot of offenders do. Um, so that's a big challenge, a big challenge of our work. And we do a lot of training on motivational interviewing, um, and a lot of training on rapport building. I'm really trying to find that one nugget that's going to keep that person in the therapy room. Uh, so it is quite different from the clinical world.

[00:39:49] Bronwyn: Do you have any hints or tips or tricks?

[00:39:52] Amy: just do a lot of motivational interviewing stuff. Um, I also do, I also really chuck the tip skill from dbt in there in the first.

[00:39:59] Bronwyn: I love the tips skill.

[00:40:00] Amy: Yeah, it's so good. Uh, Chuck that in there in the first session because they really like, they're like, Oh, you just told me to do some pushups and then I'll feel better and it works. Okay. Maybe I should come back and maybe this, um, maybe this therapy thing is actually going to be useful.

[00:40:17] Bronwyn: So you get some early buy in.

[00:40:18] Amy: Yes. Very important. Early buy-in.

[00:40:21] Bronwyn: Nice.

[00:40:22] Amy: Hmm.

[00:40:23] Bronwyn: Well, Amy, it was such a pleasure to have you, what is this intro to forensic psych, and I really loved hearing about your journey into forensic psychology and your passion and the real humanity that you give to the forensic populations. I think psychologists can have quite a negative perspective on forensic populations and just hearing the humanity and the perspective that it's like they got off life on the wrong foot, um, and then turned to drugs or crime, but we can create change and hope and give them that secure attachment was really sobering to hear.

[00:40:54] Amy: Oh, thank you.

[00:40:56] Bronwyn: Yeah. And thank you for the great work you do in our community. Like I, like I said, it's, it's, um, it's such a niche area and there's not many people. And like you said, there's such a high demand for it. So thank you.

[00:41:07] Amy: No, you're welcome. Just here to help, aren't we Bron as psychologists?

[00:41:11] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Yeah. Just trying to help. Um, so Amy, if people want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:41:18] Amy: Oh, uh, I'm the director of a practice called Receptive Psychology, uh, in the east of Melbourne. So feel free to look me up and shoot me an email. Always happy to chat about this stuff.

[00:41:29] Bronwyn: Awesome. I will put Amy's link to Receptive Psychology in the show notes, so do get in touch.

[00:41:35] And listeners, thank you so much for listening. I hope this episode was really helpful for you. If you enjoyed this episode, then please leave us a five star rating review and please share the episode with any mates who are interested in forensic psych, or even if they're not interested in forensic psych, just give it to them anyway. Um, we just like people listening to the episodes. Thanks so much. That's a wrap. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.