What does an educational & developmental psychologist do? (with Jordan Turner)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology, and as always, I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about educational and developmental psychology or EdDevPsych for short.

[00:00:20] Listeners, have you ever found yourself wondering about how to better support students mental health? Maybe you've got child clients that you don't know what to do with them, or maybe how to apply psychological principles to enhance learning and development, or maybe you just don't know what an educational developmental psychologist does or who they are. In this episode, we'll be delving into these questions and more. Our guest, is Jordan Turner. Hi, Jordan.

[00:00:46] Jordan: Hello.

[00:00:47] Bronwyn: So Jordan is the returning guest. She's been on a few episodes before. It's wonderful to have you back on again, Jordan.

[00:00:54] Jordan: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:00:56] Bronwyn: And Jordan, can you please remind listeners who you are? And your icebreaker question for today is what would colleagues be surprised to know about you?

[00:01:06] Jordan: Um, I am an educational and developmental registrar, so I'm in the program, but I'm so close to finishing it. I just need to get all my notes together. I work in private practice. And my icebreaker answer is that my colleagues would be surprised that I am way less put together at home. I'm very crazy, um, at home but I seem like I have my shit together at, at work.

[00:01:33] Bronwyn: So you've got your work persona and then your home persona.

[00:01:36] Jordan: Yeah, to some extent. I think it's just like, uh, I make sure that on the Zoom calls nobody sees the chaos behind me.

[00:01:43] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:44] Jordan: It's like, don't pan down.

[00:01:45] Bronwyn: So do I. So like we're recording this over video and normally if I record, um, or I do teams meetings and then I'll always like substantially blur the background, but it's like in my background right now I've got my sewing pattern on like the ironing board and then you've got like books in your background.

[00:02:02] Jordan: Yeah, you can't see but just to the right of me is a vacuum cleaner sitting in the middle of the room, so...

[00:02:08] Bronwyn: So your workplace colleagues would be surprised to know that about you.

[00:02:11] Jordan: I think they would, if you talked to me friends they'd be like Jordan's a total mess. But, like, at work it seems like I'm put together. Yeah.

[00:02:24] Bronwyn: It's like, do I congratulate or just, I don't know, anyway.

[00:02:29] Um, so let's talk a dev psychology. Okay. Can you share with listeners what drew you to this field? There are many different fields of psychology. What made you be like a dev psychology, that's for me.

[00:02:41] Jordan: It's really interesting because I think a lot of people get into psychology and just like are gunning for clinical. Um, and I was one of those people, unfortunately. Um, I finished my like honors here and decided I, I needed to get some more experience, um, kind of in the field because it was really hard to get into the master's programs. And I ended up doing, um, neuro affirming people block your ears, ABA for a very brief amount of time. It wasn't for me in the end. I don't think I had met, I don't think I made it, six months they kicked me out. I was too nice.

[00:03:18] Bronwyn: But that like, just to like, um, validate that, like, that was a common pathway for folks a few years ago. Um, so there were lots of ABA type organizations and you could be an assistant on, they would train you and they would provide you with support in delivering ABA therapy to children, usually autistic Yeah.

[00:03:36] Jordan: Absolutely. I think the thing was that I, um, I was, it was right on the cusp of the neuro affirming...

[00:03:44] Bronwyn: It is. It was.

[00:03:46] Jordan: Yeah, it was like a while, apparently it's been around a long time, but, yeah, at that point it was still very much like pathologizing autism. And for, yeah, just in case the listeners don't know, I'm autistic myself. I was late diagnosed.

[00:04:00] But I ended up working with these autistic toddlers and they were just the most beautiful kids. I loved them so much. It was like so lovely. And I was like, do you know what? I don't know if I really want to go into clinical anymore, I really like enjoy working with autistic kids. And I had gotten into psychology initially because I wanted to work with kids to kind of help them, but thought that clinical was like the only way to kind of go, like, because it was like top tier supposedly.

[00:04:28] And so then I got into this. ABA therapy worked into it really briefly and realized I really like working in that population. My brother was diagnosed quite young and, um, so I was kind of like, I'm kind of over, I'm like exposed to autism everywhere, but then like, working with these kids I related to them and I also kind of, I saw my brother in them and I was like, Oh, this is like so beautiful. I just want to help these beautiful little kids.

[00:04:56] And anyway, so that made me decide to pivot into Ed and Dev cause I thought that that would be a good, um, more appropriate. And, um, just so everyone knows before they turn this off and yell at me, I am like 1000 percent neuro affirming now. Um, I definitely, uh, don't endorse ABA at all.

[00:05:18] Bronwyn: Yeah, or like a pathological view of autism. Yeah, no.

[00:05:20] Jordan: Oh, not at all, no.

[00:05:21] Bronwyn: I'm interested in the moment that you found out about EdDev psychology, like, were you googling? Because technically a clinical psychologist can absolutely work with neurodivergent kids. So was there a moment when you were like, oh no, EdDev is the pathway that I want to go down?

[00:05:38] Jordan: I think I, I was aware of the different, like, subcategories, and I knew that there was clinical, and Ed and Dev seemed to be the other big one that you hear about, Forensic and all that. But I, um, I guess, and we might get into this later, I felt like Ed and Dev, works with kids, so that seemed more appropriate. Like maybe the, I think I even looked at like maybe clinical programs and I looked at what kind of courses they were doing versus like Ed and Dev programs. They seem to have more specialized, like units on development, which was something that I was interested in, whereas clinical was kind of generalist across the board.

[00:06:17] Bronwyn: No, I would agree with that, like having, doing a clinical masters right now, um, there's one unit on working with kids. Whereas my understanding of EdDev Psych is that you have several units, which is looking at child development, child assessment methods, child therapeutic methods.

[00:06:33] Jordan: Yeah, definitely. And, and not even just child, but like across the board as you find that Ed and Dev. And I was told this in an interview because I remember doing it and I was like, Oh, you know, I just really want to work with kids. And then the interviewer said, you know, we don't actually just work with kids, right? Like we do all sorts of things and we can work in clinical spaces as well. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I went home and quickly like did some more research and felt a bit bad about...

[00:06:59] Bronwyn: Yeah. So maybe like that brings us into our next question, which is what do most people get wrong about educational developmental psychology?

[00:07:07] Jordan: Yeah, I guess the big one is we're only working with kids. Developmentally we're, we're growing across the lifespan, right? So you, you work at the educational part does kind of lend itself to working with kids because of course kids go to school, but then you also think about university students who are in education and need support around that. And they're adults.

[00:07:29] And in later life, you, there's a, there's some ed and devs that specialize in older age. We had did a few courses on like old age and what kind of neurological stuff happens when you're older and the kind of things that older people are more concerned about.

[00:07:44] Um, you can also do things for like life stages. So like if you're starting a family, an Ed and Dev can help with that. Like, um, the kind of, and I, I know this from experience, but this like weird identity shift as you become a parent or like, what do you do after you finish school and you're kind of in the early young adult phase and you're like, what am I even doing with my life?

[00:08:10] All of that stuff, all these kind of like crises, quotation marks that people experience at various stages of their life can be addressed by Ed and Dev Psych.

[00:08:19] Bronwyn: You've just opened my mind because I was like, Oh, that makes sense about the developmental. It's like life stages as well. And I was like, Oh, because that, you know, the educational makes sense to me. That's educational settings. But I was like, development, yeah, child development. Okay. But it makes perfect sense that you can have developmental stages across your lifespan. And it's like, um, marriage, losing people, Like even like a common trigger for therapy that I've just noticed anecdotally over the past few years of being in clinical practice is decade birthdays. So I see a lot of to therapy and they've just turned 20, 30, 40 or 50.

[00:08:56] Jordan: Oh, yeah, I had a huge like like moment when I was turning 30 And I was like, oh my god, my life is over I'm and then like I turned 30. I was like, oh, okay.

[00:09:08] Bronwyn: I'm still here.

[00:09:08] Jordan: ...is kind of how... yeah, I'm alive!

[00:09:11] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:09:15] Jordan: Also like middle age and retirement and that sort of thing is some like that midlife crisis.

[00:09:20] Bronwyn: Uh, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:09:22] Jordan: ...all that can be...

[00:09:24] Bronwyn: And when you think about like education, cause I used to work with older adults exclusively and I love working with older adults, but we always encouraged them to keep on learning, keep your brain active. And there's a great organization. I think they're called University of the Third Age and they do courses exclusively for older adults. It's, it's like a university, but of course you can go at your own pace. And we always encourage them to do those sorts of programs that come from that. And it's just wonderful. It's so good to have, yeah, learning never stops essentially. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, I always recommend it to oldies who are looking to expand their learning.

[00:10:01] Jordan: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, because you know, like, once you retire, there's so much idle time lot people have this identity crisis. Like, what am I if I'm not my career that I had.

[00:10:11] Bronwyn: Oh, huge, huge identity crisis. And yeah, a lot of people have that due to illness or various other circumstances. Yeah. So, okay. That's a, that's a... that's really cool to know that that's a big part of being an EdDev Psych.

[00:10:22] Jordan, could you walk us through like a typical day or week in your role? Like what's the most EdDev week that you can give us that you would do lots of EdDev-y stuff in?

[00:10:34] Jordan: I think I'm not the most, like, striking example of EdDev because I work in private practice, but, um, for me in particular, I might have a few sessions with schools to advocate for my client and their learning needs. If I, if they're neurodivergent or, you know, they have strengths or weaknesses that are kind of in their cognitive profile, I might talk to the teachers and say, this is how this person learns better. Um, you can put these accommodations in place or support them in this way.

[00:11:06] I often see like kids one on one and parents and so I don't, I don't just work with kids. I also tend to work with adults as well, particularly neurodivergent adults. Um, I do assessment. I, I, some, some days I have like three hours of an assessment in the morning and then I'm just writing reports afterwards, and those are pretty chill cause not a lot of mental load involved in assessment once you know what to do, it's just kind of following the manual and then you score it and that's it.

[00:11:36] I had this better like formed in my head, but I just do like a lot of stuff because I'm in private practice. I have a lot of autonomy as well. So like, I can sleep in when I want to. I kind of schedule my clients around my, my own kind of needs.

[00:11:51] Bronwyn: Well maybe you can share with us what is the best aspects of being an ed dev psych or just your job?

[00:11:59] Jordan: I think the best aspects is being there to, I mean, fingers crossed, cause I haven't had any, I haven't been in the field that long that someone's fully grown up. But, um, being somebody who had helped influence the trajectory of somebody who might not have, um, done as well in life. Like, helping them realize that they're worthy as a person and they, you know, they, they're capable.

[00:12:26] A lot of my clients have a lot of imposter syndrome or feel that they're stupid or have really low self worth. So, so being that person there to say, Hey, you know, you're You're not stupid. Um, you're kind of adapting to what's in front of you and you're kind of just doing, making your way through the world. I think in that way I really enjoy the work that I do. Just knowing that I help kids, in that way.

[00:12:51] Bronwyn: That's actually one of my favorite aspects of being a psychologist, particularly with neurodivergent folks, because I, I don't know if you know this statistic or if you know what it is accurately, I should look it up. But it's like, um, kids who are neurodivergent will receive like 10, 000 comments about how bad they are, like before the age of 10 compared to neurotypical kids who don't sort of thing. Um, and I, I, like I said, I should look up the exact thing, but I just know it's a discrepancy.

[00:13:17] And so I really love being a psychologist where I'm like, you have a unique profile of strengths and difficulties like everybody else. And here are your strengths and here are the areas that you need more support in. Your strengths are wonderful and your difficulties don't make you a stupid or bad person. Um, and there's nothing wrong with you.

[00:13:34] You know, like I love being able to be that person that's like, you are perfectly fine just the way you are. Um, and we need to give you more support in these areas. And it sounds like you'd like that too.

[00:13:43] Jordan: I love that. I love, and I just, it breaks my heart that so many people have been given the message that they're bad or wrong. And, and of course it becomes like a prophecy almost because then like some of the kids I work with internalize that and they go, I'm a bad kid. going to start, doing, yeah, it's, it's devastating.

[00:14:04] And, you know, these kids under the right conditions can really thrive and be amazing. The amount of like neurodivergent people who are wildly successful, like, They were well supported we just, like, if we could just do that for all our neurodivergent kids, that would be so amazing. It would just be like, you know, these, these people that think outside the box are the people that are going to change the world.

[00:14:30] Bronwyn: Absolutely. 100%. I've got these great, like, I've got two pictures. One is like, cause they don't combine them on the same picture. So there's ADHD strengths and then there's like, I love being autistic strengths and I always show my clients these things and I'm like, pick out what your strengths are or like, yeah, I can see this in you if you can't pick it out. Um, so these are the wonderful things about you. And sometimes that's the first time that they've been told these things. And yeah, like you, I find that really heartbreaking.

[00:14:56] Jordan: Yeah, it's really crushing. And, um, it just makes me really sad that there's kids out there that aren't supported.

[00:15:03] Bronwyn: Me too.

[00:15:04] Jordan: I, I, yeah, I hope I'm that, like, I can be that person, that one person to say there's nothing wrong with you, you're perfect the way you are.

[00:15:10] Bronwyn: Yeah, me too. Okay. Challenges of being an Ed Dev psych. What do you find hard?

[00:15:15] Jordan: I'm gonna be a little bit spicy.

[00:15:18] Bronwyn: Yeah. Be spicy.

[00:15:19] Jordan: Of course. Um, think, well, I think like people who say, I think if you're endorsed in something other than clinical, I think a lot of a lot of, um, other ...endorsements kind of resent that they're not held to the same standard as clinical psychs.

[00:15:36] Bronwyn: Oh, tell us more about that. What do you mean?

[00:15:39] Jordan: Like, you don't get reimbursed the same way...

[00:15:41] Bronwyn: oh, for Medicare. Okay.

[00:15:44] Jordan: Or, like, people don't, like, a lot of people don't know about Ed & Dev and... and so like, especially like with NDIS, a lot of my clients kind of get knocked back if somebody other than a clinical psych has evaluated them.

[00:15:57] Bronwyn: Oh, whereas you guys, you do a lot of training and assessment and...

[00:16:01] Jordan: A huge proportion of our, our um, you know, training is in assessment and recognizing developmental conditions and stuff like that. But you know, it's, it's interesting. I just think that, um, the thing that's frustrating is when you get overlooked. And I think a lot people who are not, um, kind of in that mainstream clinical space resent that.

[00:16:23] Bronwyn: Well, we're not in therapy, but I'll ask you the therapy question that I would ask, which would be like, what feelings show up for you when you think about this situation of not being quite recognized?

[00:16:33] Jordan: I just - yeah, I feel frustrated but.... I think that's, like, what a lot of, like, the organ-, well, uh... hot topic in organizations, but I think AAPI in particular are advocating for like, recognizing diversity across professions.

[00:16:48] Bronwyn: Yeah, they are. Yeah. um. so it's like, it's, I think like the AAPI stance is that, well, we've got like eight? Oh my gosh. I hope I got that right, eight areas of endorsement?

[00:16:57] Jordan: I think it is, like, eight, like...

[00:17:00] Bronwyn: Yeah. So we've got people who are very trained in particular areas. Why is it only one area that, um, people can have more access to? Um, when Ed Dev psychs have a very specific skill set that helps a lot of people. So yeah, I can empathize and feel your frustration.

[00:17:16] Jordan: Yeah, it is, it's a hot topic though, I think that, um. Yeah, I don't know how clinicals feel about this. think that a lot of Ed and Devs, like, because I've worked in communities and, what are they called... committees and stuff, I've heard people voicing their frustration and resentment. And I'm kind oh, yeah, that's a bit

[00:17:34] Bronwyn: it doesn't surprise me because it's like, um, I mean, technically with like the, the increased Medicare rebate for clinical psychologists, that's to increase access to them. But what we find actually happens in private practice is that clinical psychologists charge 40 more. So, I mean, that ends up with a bigger salary. So...

[00:17:55] Jordan: Like, what?

[00:17:56] Bronwyn: You know, the frustration and, you know, possible feelings of upsetness, uh, that makes sense in that context.

[00:18:02] Jordan: Yeah, but yeah, I think that's, that's a hot topic that... tread lightly when you bring it!

[00:18:08] Bronwyn: Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else about your role as an ed dev psych that you find challenging? Like, um, for me, I've talked about this on previous episodes, but, I'm not an assessment loving person. Um, I just, I find the, I like doing the assessment itself and then like as an ADHD er, when I think about writing up reports, I'm like, oh, I just go into like full like child tantrum mode.

[00:18:36] Um, yeah, tell us, is that challenging for you or are you cool with it?

[00:18:39] Jordan: Um, as an autistic person, I, I kind of, um, like the idea of being able to work without having to talk to way, I enjoy that space. Um, but I definitely have, like, issues with the executive functioning bit of like, forming words to explain somebody's like, background. I don't really like that part assessment.

[00:19:01] I think on the whole I enjoy, like, the system part of my brain really likes analyzing cognitive profiles and, ooh, how interesting how their neurodivergence manifested in that way. It's really cool. I get really like nerdy when someone tells me an unusual special interest. I'm like, yes, that's so cool.

[00:19:21] Bronwyn: Yeah, I find that really interesting as well. I really, I've been listening to a bit more on stimming and I didn't realise how many different manifestations of stimming exist. So I found very interesting and I imagine you find that interesting too.

[00:19:35] Jordan: Yeah. And some that you're like, oh, I didn't realize that was a stim, but apparently it is.

[00:19:39] Bronwyn: Yeah, so it's me like biting my cheek while listening to the podcast about stimming, telling people that biting your cheek is a stim and I'm like, dammit, I feel sane.

[00:19:48] Jordan: Yeah. Like, what, what?

[00:19:51] Bronwyn: Um, okay. So it largely sounds like you quite enjoy being an Ed Dev psych.

[00:19:56] Jordan: I think so. Like, I don't, I'm trying to think about what I don't like about it, but I, I think on the whole I've really enjoyed it. Maybe, I, I don't like, um, working in a system, so I don't really like working for the man, quotation marks, like, um, in schools, or like in a hospital, because I don't like having to answer to people and in that way maybe I wouldn't enjoy it that much.

[00:20:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, because a lot of EdDev psychs they do work in educational settings, is that right?

[00:20:25] Jordan: Yeah, yeah. So, um, what you often think of with an Ed and Dev psych is like a school psychologist who's gone in and they work for, schools and, and, you know, they do like kind of brief counseling for students there. The thing I didn't like about that was I didn't, um, have the full kind of ability to support my client.

[00:20:44] You just see them. You know, stabilize them and send them on their way. And then you have like various parties that you have to answer to, like your school expectations versus what's ethical versus, you know what's best for the client and like, how much can you actually hold for them so that in that way, that would be frustrating for me, but I've structured my own career around enjoying the work I do, I think.

[00:21:09] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, wonderful. With being an EdDev psych in school settings, you don't have to have an EdDev Masters to work in school settings?

[00:21:19] Jordan: No.

[00:21:20] Bronwyn: Do you know if EdDev endorsed folks get paid more? I guess it's a bit of a spicy question. I guess, how do you see yourselves in the school system or is it just level playing field with everybody else?

[00:21:32] Jordan: Yeah, I guess my... my impression is that we... We don't get paid more. might have like more senior roles, I suppose we're kind of specialized but I don't know if you necessarily get paid more because uh, There's so few Ed and Devs, so it's very close knit community that often the school psych isn't Ed and Dev ensorsed, usually just a school psych, or a psych that decided to work in a school or even like somebody who's not a psychologist at all, like, and it's just um, kind of like a youth worker or something like that, because there's so few psychs working out there.

[00:22:10] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:22:10] Jordan: A very in demand area. So if anyone wanted to go work in schools as a psych you, more than welcome.

[00:22:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah, actually, that's a good point. So, with EdDev, do you feel like there's an increased demand for people who have the skills in these areas?

[00:22:28] Jordan: There's no shortage of work for us. Um, I think most people that I know of, their books close like pretty much instantly. And if they're, you know, if they're neuro affirming bonus, because that's very, helpful these days, I think a lot of people are recognizing that. But

[00:22:44] like assessment in particular, huge, huge need. Um, People in schools, huge need. I think you, I, I regularly get like messages on my LinkedIn asking for if I'm interested in a gig or something like that. So there's no shortage of work for us.

[00:23:01] Bronwyn: Wow. Okay. That's good to know, because right now I'm just hearing that for some psychologists, they are finding it difficult to fill their books. So it is really good to know that that is an in demand area and that those skills are quite valued.

[00:23:16] Jordan: Oh yeah. I think if you're happy to do report writing and, um, if you like working with kids, I don't think many people like working with kids. I think it's because it's it's a lot more involved sometimes, playing and stuff, um, and it's not what you envision necessarily if you go working in psychology.

[00:23:34] Bronwyn: I wish those were my natural inclinations though, because to both of those things, I'm like bleh.

[00:23:40] Jordan: Do you know what, what my favorite thing about working with kids was when I first started was I wanted to dress like a kid and not be told off at work.

[00:23:48] Bronwyn: God, I still want that for myself now. I look at little kids who wear like beautiful outfits and I'm like, why can't I have a pony fabric with stars on it and wear that and not be called weird?

[00:24:01] Jordan: I know that. And I was like, so like, and another reason why I was like, I'm going to go to a private practice, kind of wear what I want. It was like, I think I'm going to dye my hair pink again. used to have it, whatever.

[00:24:12] Bronwyn: My god, you do what you want, Jordan. Yeah, no, go for it. That makes sense.

[00:24:15] Jordan: Hopefully, hopefully that doesn't make me look odd to my clients. I think they know me well enough now.

[00:24:21] Bronwyn: I mean, I got a tattoo last year and they've been, all my clients have been really nice about it. Um, and sometimes they ask about it and sometimes they don't. And I think it's a big deal. And sometimes I have green hair as well.

[00:24:31] Jordan: Oh, that's awesome.

[00:24:32] Bronwyn: Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't scare them off. Um, unless they're secretly scared off, but they still keep coming back. So I guess they're not that scared.

[00:24:39] Jordan: Like, I'm not scared enough by the green

[00:24:41] Bronwyn: Yeah. Like, I'm a little bit frightened, but not enough to can you as my psychologist.

[00:24:47] Going into your focus areas. So you're passionate about neurodivergent folks and their families, right? Um, and I understand that you are also quite interested in working with folks who are gifted and twice exceptional. Could you tell us a bit about your interests? Like what brought you to be interested in those areas? And could you also tell us what twice exceptional means?

[00:25:10] Jordan: Yeah, sure. I'm pretty sure that, you know, the, the phrase autism, ADHD, they like smashed it together, auDHDers. Pretty sure that's considered twice exceptional, it's like multiple diagnoses at once.

[00:25:24] Um, twice exceptional, I think a lot of people assume that means like, like, gifted level. I think, I think people are steering away from gifted though. It's like high ability is more acceptable.

[00:25:34] Bronwyn: Oh, okay. Good.

[00:25:35] Jordan: But I don't know, like when I first started it was, it was gifted. I'm not sure, maybe somebody...

[00:25:39] Bronwyn: I still use the word gifted, but I just noticed it makes my gifted clients intensely uncomfortable if I'm like, hello, you're gifted. And they're just like, blah.

[00:25:47] Jordan: Yeah, I often say like high, high ability, um.

[00:25:50] Bronwyn: Gosh, maybe I should start using that, but that might be better received.

[00:25:55] Jordan: Yeah, it doesn't matter. Like I think, so I'm, I'll get into it. That there's a, it's so loaded to be called gifted as well. And if you're so twice exceptional can also be like autistic and high ability. high IQ is what we're typically saying, but sometimes it might be like a niche skill that they have, like music or, or art or like that, which is a little more harder to, quantify.

[00:26:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And so, what brought your interest into these areas?

[00:26:25] Jordan: I'm not so sure. I think I just really loved the complexity and how things intersected. I really like, uh, looking at how high ability might intersect with autism. They seem to have very similar, like if you're like, special interest is something, you might like extremely deep dive into it. And you're high ability, you might know, you might be like the kind of person that would go on to be like a leader in that field. that was really interesting of foster that, ability to succeed and be amazing at what they do, but while still feeling okay with themselves, quite a few gifted high ability kids hate themselves, or don't feel good about themselves because they, and especially if they're twice exceptional, which most of my clients are, I don't think I've seen a gifted person who isn't autistic or ADHD. So, I mean, I'd be interested to meet them, but, um, they're often quite neurodivergent in some way.

[00:27:27] Bronwyn: Yeah, I guess like just having a bit of experience with gifted clients and twice exceptional folks myself, um, I noticed that they have specific needs in the educational system. So it's like the educational system isn't necessarily built for gifted folks, and so they may get bored, they may become disengaged. Um, they may start, behaviourally doing different things to keep themselves stimulated. is this stuff that you observe as well?

[00:27:57] Jordan: Yeah, you know, I've noticed a lot of my Twice Exceptional kids, part demand avoidant, cause they really value that autonomy find it frustrating that, like they've already kind of grasped the concept and they'll kind of move on and be like, okay, well, I'm bored now, so. And why am I listening to this teacher? Cause they, if they're autistic, reject kind of hierarchy and authority. So why am I bothering listening to this guy? Cause he's clearly an idiot when I have understand this at a much higher level or challenging the teacher and like, which is, which is also, um, quite fun. love, I love a challenging kid who like calls people on their bullshit. And I, um, I know that, um, that's come back to bite me because my daughter is quite like that.

[00:28:41] Bronwyn: Ha ha.

[00:28:42] Jordan: Like, Oh God, now it's, but, um, it's such an interesting way that they're kind of divergence and their differences intersect and so they, they simultaneously know the material but for some reason can't get it out on paper or their grades aren't reflecting that and are often like I know you know this you're very smart and all this sort of thing but then like they can't sit still long enough to write it down or they immediately forget it because they're dysregulated if they have executive functioning if they're ADHDers, part of, yeah.

[00:29:19] Bronwyn: That really affects them because it's like everyone is telling me I'm so smart, but why am I getting like Cs, you know? So why I access or demonstrate my smarts in this area?

[00:29:29] Jordan: Yeah, what's wrong with me? Am I stupid? Or, or, am I just faking this whole time? People think I'm smart but I'm not.

[00:29:35] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:29:36] Jordan: Um, or like a lot of Twice Exceptional kids kinda graduate and they're like, they used to be like evaluated on by grades, but then once you get out of school, there's no grades to like measure your worth on so then they're kind of like well am I even worth anything if I'm not contributing to society because there's a lot less structure outside of school so then they're kind of like flying by the seat of their pants. Like what do I do with myself now kind of...

[00:30:02] Bronwyn: Yeah, a lot of existential angst.

[00:30:04] Jordan: Lot... yeah, am I am I even a person if I'm not achieving and like constant fear of failure and you know, a whole like thing.

[00:30:15] Bronwyn: It's very rich. It's a very interesting area. And, um, yeah, lots of, lots of folks who struggle with, with this and being neurodivergent usually on the side.

[00:30:26] Jordan: Hmm. Yeah, like like I said, I haven't really seen any high ability maybe that's why they if they were high ability and not neurodivergent maybe they're not in therapy. They're just kind of smashing through life. But...

[00:30:36] Bronwyn: oh, that's a good point.

[00:30:38] Jordan: I don't know like... no, some aren't in therapy, but they should be, so. Mmm.

[00:30:54] Bronwyn: Like for me, giftedness has gone along with some neurodivergence, but, you know, it's like they, cause they think differently and they approach situations differently and they don't necessarily adhere to social conventions and the way that you're supposed to do things and their challenges and entrepreneurs. And yeah, no, it's, it's really interesting.

[00:31:14] Jordan: My, like, autistic, brain is like, I need to correct this.

[00:31:18] Bronwyn: Oh, yes, please do...

[00:31:19] Jordan: It's worth saying that if you are considered high ability, you're considered neurodivergent anyway, because you're divergent from the norm.

[00:31:27] Bronwyn: Oh, that makes sense. Oh, thank you. Now, I'm really pleased that you're able to correct that.

[00:31:31] Jordan: Sorry, I was like, oh, I hope people don't pick me up on this.

[00:31:34] Bronwyn: No, I think that no, thank you. I really appreciate it. That's a really good point to make.

[00:31:38] Um, one area that I wanted to pick up on was that you have, um, I don't know if it's a special interest would be correct to say, but you, you have a quite a bit of knowledge about demand avoidance. Is that right?

[00:31:50] Jordan: Yeah, I do work a lot with demand avoidance for some reason.

[00:31:53] Bronwyn: Yeah. And how do you approach, I guess, like assessing and helping folks who are demand avoidance? Like, is it always a problem or is it okay?

[00:32:03] Jordan: Um, it's, it's always interesting. They, the demand avoidance clients that I work with are usually really brilliant in their own way. Um, but they're, it's a slow game with demand avoidance clients. You really have to build safety in the room and make sure that they, they trust you and, um, that, you know, you respect their autonomy and treat them like a person and not like you're the therapist and they're the person in the room, like giving them that kind of, I'm treating you like a person.

[00:32:37] Sometimes, we'll have several sessions before they can get to any therapeutic work to get that rapport and it's, it's a slow game. I think anyone who works with demand avoidance recognize that a lot of work needs to be put into gaining that trust building that, um, safety for that client.

[00:32:58] I do assessment, and I have done assessment for demand avoidance clients in particular. They're often considered to be unassessable because the demand is implied in the assessment. Um, so if they're told you gotta sit down and do a bunch of tasks so we can look at your IQ. way to set off, like, somebody who's afraid of, of meeting demands.

[00:33:20] I guess, maybe I should even explain what demand avoidance is. I haven't even... ha ha.

[00:33:24] Bronwyn: I was thinking that because I think a common misconception is that like, they don't want to do the things, but my understanding is that do want to do some things. It's, they struggle do those things. Even the things that they want to do are hard for them to do.

[00:33:39] Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. So, essentially, a demand avoidant, um, person feels intense anxiety when an expectation is placed on them. They're often diagnosed as like ODD or, or conduct disorder or something like that, or ADHD or whatever. But I mean, I think they tend, demand avoidance is considered like a sub, like a flavor of autism, you know?

[00:34:04] Um, but essentially it's like anytime a demand and expectation is placed on them, whether it's implicit or explicit, it makes, it, it's like, creates this intense anxiety in them and they kind of find it really hard to do the thing, whatever it is. And sometimes if it's even things that they want to do, they can't because they just feel like paralyzed in what they're doing, or shut down, or, or some kids find a way to kind of, I'm saying kids but I also work with demand invited adults, circumvent the demand by like saying something and throwing you off the track like if you're like, oh, can you answer this question? They'll talk around it or oh look a distraction that sort of thing just to reduce that anxiety.

[00:34:50] So the critical thing with demand avoidance clients is to reduce the levels of anxiety before you can engage and work with them. If the anxiety is down, if they feel like they have control over the situation, then they can then, do the work that they need to do, which is, you know, whatever they're in therapy for. Sometimes it is demand avoidance.

[00:35:14] Bronwyn: Is the anxiety coming from feeling that they're not quite in control of what they're doing? So is that what the demand, so the demand places pressure on them, they feel anxious because they feel that they need to do this thing that they're not in control in? Is that the right way of, not quite?

[00:35:31] Jordan: I mean, I, I'm not sure if it's, I, I'd have to ask some demand avoidant people because I don't necessarily think that they are thinking I don't have control

[00:35:41] Bronwyn: Okay.

[00:35:41] Jordan: I think anxiety comes from a lack of control you don't, if you can't anticipate what's going to happen, then that might make you anxious.

[00:35:50] Bronwyn: Makes sense.

[00:35:51] Jordan: Um, and I wonder in, it could be a possible fear of failure, meet those expectations? that's why I kind of wonder if maybe a, twice exceptional, um, kind of situation because I often see that in my twice exceptional clients. It, it's just a very visceral feeling for them they just, oh this is really uncomfortable, I'm going to try and avoid this discomfort rather than face it head on.

[00:36:15] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think we need to do a podcast episode on this one because...

[00:36:18] Jordan: I, gladly, yeah.

[00:36:20] Bronwyn: ...because I have had a few clients who, um, have the PDA flavor and I would like to learn how to do it better. Um, because my natural approach in therapy and because I'm neurodivergent as well, I don't enjoy hierarchy. So I'm very, leveled with my clients and I'm very okay if they're slow to warm up and trust and I'll always be like, please give me feedback. If you tell me I'm doing something wrong, I will change it. No questions asked. Like that's cool with me.

[00:36:45] And I have in supervision, like I have been told that that's not necessarily a great approach. Like I should be more hierarchical, but I think that's influenced by like, uh, you know, therapist particular, models that they adhere to. And I feel like this comfy for me as a neurodivergent person. But in saying all of that, I think I would like more strategies for PDA. So I think we should do a...

[00:37:06] Jordan: Okay, I will definitely come and talk your ear off about PDA.

[00:37:11] Bronwyn: Yeah, I'd love to hear it. Yeah.

[00:37:13] So If there's any early career psychologists listening who are curious about the path to becoming an EdDev psychologist, um, what would you say to them if they're considering. They've heard that there's clinical and that's fabulous and how, how would you, encourage them? I don't want to say the dark side of EdDev, but that was my automatic thought.

[00:37:35] Jordan: Come to the dark side.

[00:37:37] Bronwyn: What would you say to them about EdDev?

[00:37:40] Jordan: Um, I'd say that if you really want some specialized and niche training in working in the educational space or the developmental space, Ed and Dev's a good fit for you. It's a very close knit community. I, I can't speak to the clinical, kind of community. I expect that it's much bigger than Ed in Dev but you, I don't know in the media or whatever they're saying that like a lot of Ed in Dev programs are being shut down there's, there's, only like a handful of us. I think there are like in Melbourne, I think there's one in Sydney and then there's one in, there's a few in like Queensland, but like it's all on this side of Australia. So then that means that like other places like the NT, um, South Australia, you know, Western Australia don't really have that many Ed and Dev's there. So worth kind of thinking if, if that's like a niche you want to get into that, that specific area, it's so, it's so helpful to do that.

[00:38:36] I think it's also a highly, highly in demand space. Like, I don't think that, um, Ed and Devs ever struggle with finding work because of the niche that we work in with kids and it's just like upskilling us particularly in working with kids and educational assessment because neurodivergence is, is popping off right now. Everyone's got, you know, everyone's going to get assessed and suddenly realizing, Oh wow, that wasn't normal my whole childhood. Let's go look that up. That's also kind of an Ed and Dev niche space. I mean, neuropsych do that too, and I know clinical do that as well, but it's really interesting. Um, from the neurodevelopmental space, that's, that's what you could do.

[00:39:21] Bronwyn: What I'm hearing is if you want further learning and unique and I guess, specialized skills in educational assessments, working with kids, I guess, differential diagnosis in, um, developmental differences, then Ed Dev is a good fit for you.

[00:39:40] Jordan: Yeah, we definitely do, um, like a lot of neurodivergent stuff. So we look at, like, SLD, that's a really, I don't know if it's a great place to go if you want to specialize in intellectual disability. Um, I think it's called something else. Developmental disorder now? I don't know. Um, you know, twice exceptionality. All the kind of different flavors of brains really well addressed in Ed and Ev.

[00:40:07] Bronwyn: And, I guess, looking back on your experience of doing the masters, like, do you feel like it was worth it? Like it really helped your practice and you feel good about having made that decision?

[00:40:17] Jordan: I do, um, I did mine at University of Melbourne which was just an Educational psychology degree, surprise, surprise. So even though I talked about developmental, I was like, um, that they like prided themselves on specifically school based stuff, even though I was kind of more interested in development. But I, I felt like it was really, helpful in, like, cause you know, you do PD in like areas that you want to work in. It's a great baseline for like that knowledge, you know, and so it's a great, like I learned in my master's course to do thorough cognitive assessments, educational assessments. We talked about the different forms of neurodivergence. Remembering it's just early days when it wasn't like neuroaffirming practice. It was like cusp of that. I learned about how to work within a system. We talked about groups, group therapy, family therapy is also one of those things that Ed and Dev covers.

[00:41:15] Bronwyn: Oh yeah, course.

[00:41:17] Jordan: Um, so a lot of that is kind of covered in Ed and Dev masters and across the

[00:41:25] Bronwyn: Really good. Yeah.

[00:41:27] Jordan: Yeah. I mean, I liked it. It's, it's. I came into it kind of not knowing the full scope of it and came out of it really appreciating the knowledge that I gained from it. And, and like, I feel way more comfortable than I think I would have felt if I hadn't done it in the neurodivergent space, just because I was well equipped to kind of look at it from that perspective.

[00:41:52] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, it sounds really valuable. Like all the things you just described are things that I'm seeking PD for separately. It's like, I want to do PD for PDA, for family therapy, for more neurodiversity affirming, um, therapy. Whereas in EdDevPsych it's all under neatly packaged in the onesie.

[00:42:13] Jordan: Yeah, I guess the the flip side of that is just my just my, my knowledge of like personality disorders isn't up to what a clinical psych would be.

[00:42:20] Bronwyn: Okay, sure.

[00:42:22] Jordan: Or like, you know, schizophrenia. Like I kind of know that from my own like study and stuff like that, but it's not something that's necessarily covered in the baseline of Ed and Dev.

[00:42:32] Bronwyn: And you know, something I've been reflecting on lately is like how challenging it is for psychologists to be across the whole totality of human experiences and the totality of like every, um, aspect of the DSM, and if we try and be everything to everyone, we're probably going to burn out. So it's like, if you're, you know, you might not. You can be further along in personality disorders, but you don't have to, you know, advertise to folks who are, who, who might be seeking assistance with, um, personality characteristics.

[00:43:02] Jordan: Yeah. And I guess that's the key of it is just that like I work in a highly specialized like space. I, I get to touch on like the fact that I'm, I work almost exclusively with queer and like trans clients as well, which is...

[00:43:17] Bronwyn: Oh, cool.

[00:43:18] Jordan: I, yeah, I don't know if I said that, but I...

[00:43:20] Bronwyn: You didn't. Sorry. Yeah. And-

[00:43:22] Jordan: I work a lot with trans kids, which is interesting.

[00:43:24] Bronwyn: Oh, wonderful. And do you feel like your ed dev training like really helps out with that?

[00:43:28] Jordan: No, that was kind of my own...

[00:43:30] Bronwyn: Yeah, actually, a good I mean, expected that answer because it's like, no, I don't think, you know, many university programs, like I know in my own masters, which was the 5 plus 1 course, we had one hour on trans and gender diverse folks. How much did I have in this Master of Clin Psych course? I think we had one lecture on it too. But it's very much like it was, it was still really like, genderdiversity101. It was like, what is trans? What is non binary? And I'm like, yeah, like, got it. Um...

[00:44:01] Jordan: Like, trans issues, what do you do when your client is questioning their gender, how do you support them, what's gender affirming practice, do about kids that aren't gender diverse? That's, that's a that I work in.

[00:44:15] Bronwyn: I mean, yeah, I had do sexology to get like the answers to that question.

[00:44:19] Jordan: Yeah, that's crazy, like that should be, Yeah, and the fact is is that a lot of... I'm getting ranty now, but um lot of neurodivergent people tend to be queer or gender diverse like...

[00:44:32] Bronwyn: I can't remember the exact statistic, but like a lot, like I think like majority, like if you're like gender diverse, like you might also be neurodivergent.

[00:44:43] Jordan: Yeah, like how many people have taken the time to kind of look into that as far as, like, that's, that's a new kind of, and it's all, like, all these people are, like, outsiders. They're just being told they're wrong, everything about them is wrong, and it's just horrible, and they need support! Also a really interesting space, but, yeah.

[00:45:03] Bronwyn: Yeah. I love working with, folks from the LGBTIQA plus community, um, and neurodivergent folks. It's, it's a wonderful area and there's definitely a need for more support. Like folks in those communities, um, are usually at higher risk of suicide, self harm, um, minority pressures, minority stress, and societal, I guess like internalization of societal stigma. So there's a whole raft of issues, um, that can come up that as psychologists we can support them with.

[00:45:31] Jordan: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I guess that's a, like I spoke about this in the way back in the first kind of podcast I did with you episode, um, where like a lot of my clients tend to be on the pointy end because they're dealing all those, those things.

[00:45:46] Bronwyn: Yeah, which is, yeah, um, so yeah, having a psychologist who, is educated about the space, um, an ally in the space, can make huge difference to these people's lives.

[00:45:58] Jordan: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:46:00] Bronwyn: So, Jordan, was there anything that we haven't touched on, which you do want to give, some airtime to tell listeners about?

[00:46:07] Jordan: I think it's, it's worth saying that endorsements really expensive.

[00:46:12] Bronwyn: Oh, please. I tell us, like, you know, like, I do, would you feel comfortable sharing, like, round about how you pay for supervision?

[00:46:20] Jordan: Oh god, like if you're lucky you can get like reduced rates But you need like so much so so much like supervision It's like 80 hours of supervision and this is for well or any other endorsement. And then you need like something like, I don't know, like I'm gonna have to look it up, but 40 hours of PD, and then you have to like peer supervision. It's all very expensive if you don't get it covered by like your organization that you're with. So unfortunately, because I'm mostly on my own, I'm paying out of pocket and that can be really expensive and I guess, um, with a budget coming out and that being a hot topic, I mean, I think this is probably gonna be released much later, but the budget just got released like yesterday.

[00:47:02] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:47:03] Jordan: Not enough funding is being put towards like, training for psychologists and-

[00:47:08] Bronwyn: It's not.

[00:47:10] Jordan: It's really a bit, um, yeah, like we have people who can do this, but we need support because how would you expect people to be able to work in these very specialized areas where people are really, like, I don't think, like, none of the stuff that I've talked about necessarily is baseline knowledge for psychologists. Now I'm, like, soapboxing. Um, but it costs money to train in that. And if we can't subsidise. It's, like, brutal.

[00:47:40] Bronwyn: No, it's something, it's something I've been reflecting on as well. It's like, let's just say like the cost of a supervisor is like $250 a session. $250 times 80, that's a lot of money. Um, plus upskilling and doing your PD. I think there's like 30 hours of required PD, your registrar program. Um, you know, and let's say PD is Uh, seven hours, 600 bucks. Um, that's a lot of money. Yeah, there's a lot of excess money. And if you think about, okay, if you're charging like 200 a session, um, you know, so you're trading like multiple sessions essentially for your supervision and, and PD. It's a lot.

[00:48:17] Jordan: Oh yeah, like I I had a supervision the other day that cost more than a session I had with a client and I was like, oh, okay.

[00:48:24] Bronwyn: Exactly. Well, usually our supervisors are more experienced than us, so it's like, they usually charge more as well.

[00:48:29] Jordan: Yeah, and that's understandable, yeah.

[00:48:31] Bronwyn: Yeah, understandable. So it's like, but that means that you're trading like, let's say 1.5 of your own sessions. So you can do one hour of supervision. It's, it's a difficult financial situation. And thank you for bringing that up because I think it's important to speak to the realities of this, um, that it's good to, it's been really valuable for you to do the master's in EdDev, but the registrar program presents extra financial challenge.

[00:48:58] Jordan: Yeah, I think it also speaks to like, like the privilege that I have that I can afford that, not everyone can. Um, and what does that mean for, for psychs that do want to specialize but can't afford that, you know?

[00:49:10] Bronwyn: Yeah. I, yeah. I hate, I hate that . I've, yeah. I hate that you have to have privilege to, to be able to, to gain endorsement of- Hmm. It really grinds my gears.

[00:49:22] Jordan: Indeed.

[00:49:23] Bronwyn: Jordan, what's your biggest takeaway that you hope listeners will leave with from our conversation today?

[00:49:30] Jordan: I hope I've sparked interest for, for our listeners to kind of consider Ed and Dev as a, uh, legit pathway. I've hoped, like, I hope more people get interested in Ed and Dev because we need more Ed and Devs out there because I, I'm lonely here. I just want more friends who are in my field.

[00:49:51] Bronwyn: She needs more friends.

[00:49:53] Jordan: I do.

[00:49:54] Yeah. I mean, I talk to people every day, but it's not the same.

[00:49:59] Bronwyn: That makes sense. And is there any piece of advice you would give to early career psychs that you wish you had when you were first starting out?

[00:50:08] Jordan: Say yes to as much as you can, because, um, but don't like overdo it. Say yes to any opportunity because the opportunity to say yes to things like, like, um, volunteer work or this podcast, for example, gives you an opportunity to meet new people and people that are in the field who you can talk to later and get support with. And, and that only helps in this career because we all kind of, build on each other and we rely on each other and we help each other and that's how psych works. So it's important to give yourself the opportunity. And not in the manufactured like networking way to say yes and to helping a friend.

[00:50:49] Bronwyn: Uh, absolutely. I would echo that. I just think the longer I'm in this career, I, not that I didn't value it before, but the, I increasingly recognize the importance of support, um, and just how isolating we can be in our profession if we don't connect with other people. Um, so yeah, 100 percent echo that.

[00:51:11] Jordan, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you and can you name drop your private practice as well?

[00:51:18] Jordan: Yeah, I'm at Jordan Turner Psychology. I work with neurodivergent clients, queer gender diverse clients, and I, I'm very interested in like, AFAB and, women, girls on the spectrum. That's kind of my niche and that's what I did my Master's on. but you can find me on JordanTurnerPsych, just the, the first part of psychology, just psych, dot com. And that's where I'm at.

[00:51:45] Bronwyn: Wonderful. And I'll pop that in the show notes so that listeners can take a look. And listeners, I hope this episode did inspire you to consider more with the Ed and Dev space. It sounds like a wonderful space. So if you're thinking about, well, what would I like to do in the future? Yeah, consider EdDev. Um, and I hope you just enjoyed hearing Jordan's perspectives as well on some of the areas of EdDev.

[00:52:08] Thanks so much for listening. And don't forget that word of mouth is the best way to get the podcast into new ears. So please tell your mate, tell your colleague, tell your dog, tell your cat, tell anyone who has ears. I would really appreciate it. And if you want to say hi, you can catch me on the socials, or you can email me at mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time.