Working effectively with religious trauma (with Sam Sellers)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology. And as always, I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins. And today we are talking about religious trauma. We're going to be unpacking it because it's a really overlooked area in mental health and psychology, particularly in Australia.

[00:00:23] So by tuning into this episode, I hope you'll gain some really valuable insights into recognizing and treating clients affected by religious trauma, just helping them along in their journeys and learning strategies to help support them in their healing journey.

[00:00:37] I think it's a really great subject to be talking about as well, because in 2021, just over half of Australians reported being affiliated with a religion. So, 52.2 percent as reported by the ABS, with the highest affiliation being Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. So, I know I've never seen or attended any professional development on religious trauma. And so I'm really excited to have our guest here today to help us unpack this world and help us understand it.

[00:01:06] Here to help us out is our guest Sam Sellers. Hi, Sam.

[00:01:09] Sam: Hi Bron, thanks for having me.

[00:01:11] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you. Could you please tell the listeners who you are and what your non work passion is?

[00:01:17] Sam: Yeah, so I am a queer religious trauma therapist. Um, I live and work on Gundungurraland, which is just north of Canberra but I work worldwide except for the US and Canada. My non work passion I think would be cricket, which is a little random. Um, but my wife and I love watching cricket.

[00:01:44] Bronwyn: Wow. Which team do you go for? What's your favorite type of cricket?

[00:01:48] Sam: Well, um, I, I like all forms of cricket. Some people don't necessarily love the long form of cricket, but I do. I find it relaxing. Um, but obviously I go for Australia. Yeah.

[00:02:01] Bronwyn: Okay. Yeah. I'm a BBL fan and that's pretty much the cricket that, that I can do. If it's long form. I embarrassingly, I've left the stadium beforehand and I'm like, so I'm like, nope, I cannot do this.

[00:02:15] Sam: Yeah, I mean, that's fair. It's certainly not for everybody. Um, in terms of BBL, I'm a Sydney Sixers fan.

[00:02:22] Bronwyn: Nice. Excellent. Yeah. It's awesome that you can be like, look, this is real relaxing for me.

[00:02:29] Sam: Yeah, it's, it's, I think it's just really great to have something to tune out, like, and it doesn't, it doesn't require any mental capacity or anything like that, which is really good. Yeah.

[00:02:44] Bronwyn: Oh, so lovely. Well, Sam, thanks again for coming on. It's such a delight and privilege to have you here to talk to us about religious trauma. Maybe we could start off by having you let us know a bit about what it is and what it looks like in clients who do seek therapy for religious trauma.

[00:03:01] Sam: Yeah, so I guess, you know, if we go a step back in terms of what is trauma, which, you know, is obviously, um, you know, not the thing that happens to you, but what happens inside of your body as a result of what happens to you. Um, and so I guess if we use that sort of as a foundational understanding, religious trauma is anything that that is of a religious connotation. So it could be beliefs, practices, doctrines. Um, it could be pastoral or clergy abuse. Anything that happens in a religious environment, that results in trauma in your body.

[00:03:45] Bronwyn: And so these experiences may happen to folks who are affiliated with a religion and it overwhelms them and they don't have the resources or capacity to be able to cope with these overwhelming experiences.

[00:03:59] Sam: Yeah, so I think we often think that something that causes trauma has to be abusive, or it has to be an overarching event. Um, with religious trauma, it's a little bit different, I think, because it could be something like, um, a child being raised with, um, fearing the rapture or fearing hell, and fearing being, so the rapture, if you have nothing to do with religion, is essentially the concept that, anybody who doesn't fall underneath, um, the banner of Christianity, the right form of Christianity, inverted commas, um, will be left behind. The concept is being left behind.

[00:04:42] So you could have children coming home from school, their parents not being there and having instant panic and anxiety that, Oh my gosh, the raptures happened and I'm here alone and I'm left behind. And so it can be things like that.

[00:04:55] It can be, obviously it can be abuse. So in terms of like clergy, physical, emotional, sexual abuse, pastoral abuse. But, you know, it can be very insidious and very subtle. It can happen, um, on a week to week basis in terms of being taught that you are broken and sinful, being told that, uh, your feelings and your body is not trustworthy, um, and to divert that, authority to either a pastor or to a divine being.

[00:05:29] Bronwyn: Thanks for sharing that- the range of religious trauma experiences, because I think maybe some listeners might be like, Oh, it's abuse kind of equated with that. But like you say, there's a variety of experiences that can happen. And it just occurred to me as we were talking that some people, maybe a lot of people may believe that religion is a force of good and that it may have lots of good aspects. So I just wanted to check, like, is it controversial that religious trauma actually exists?

[00:05:59] Sam: Well, a little bit. I guess it depends on who you're talking to. Yeah. Um, but I guess the stance that I tend to take is that I am not anti faith, but I am anti fundamentalism and anti, harm. And so, um, I think, yeah, churches can do a lot of good and religion can provide a lot of comfort and a lot of solace for people. In times of grief or loss, um, and so it, and it's, you know, churches do community really well, um, and, and so I think it's being able to balance that this is a really nuanced conversation and that while something can provide great comfort for one person, can provide great trauma and great harm and a lot of fear and anxiety for somebody else.

[00:06:53] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Thanks for again, clarifying that. Um, because yeah, so both realities can be true.

[00:06:59] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I think part of, um, part of what I work with in, in unpacking religious trauma is actually being able to sit with curiosity and questions and for things to not... for things to not fall into black and white thinking or very binary thinking, that actually there is a whole spectrum and a whole sphere of stuff that fit in between that sort of very us versus them mentality.

[00:07:28] Bronwyn: Yeah, because I imagine that some clients may even feel uncomfortable with the idea that they are having these questions about their faith or their experiences.

[00:07:40] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. It is a huge cause of anxiety and particularly, uh, there are some, uh, fundamental churches that don't encourage questions. And so questions, um, are seen as being doubtful or causing, what's the word? Like rustling the feathers, rustling the leaves a little bit, like just causing, uncertainty where there doesn't need to be.

[00:08:08] And so for the first time, this, you know, this might be the first time that they've asked a question that they've been able to felt safe enough to ask that question without feeling Um, fear of consequences. And I think it's really important also that that fear of consequences is not always just from a pastor or from a leader. There is also like a, um, there's a fear of divine consequences. So there's a fear of punishment from, um, the, the divine figure, whether that be God or whoever else. There's a fear of eternal punishment and a fear of, um, retribution for asking those questions, yeah.

[00:08:55] Bronwyn: Wow. So that can be absolutely terrifying to say come into your space and be like, I'm going to ask questions.

[00:09:00] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And I find that unless, uh, they've been wrestling with it for a little while already, or they've been following some people on social media or something like that, people don't present going, Hey, I have religious trauma. It's just not what they do.

[00:09:17] Bronwyn: Yes. Okay.

[00:09:19] Sam: I find that, you know, somebody might present, with a lot of anxiety and, and upon sort of teasing that out, you realise that the anxiety is around church or the anxiety is around, you know, fearing that, they want a career if they're their husband or their, you know, church leaders don't allow them, as particularly as women, to, to do that. So, it's a very layered and nuanced conversation and it can feel a little bit like, uh, a completely different language if you don't know what somebody is talking about.

[00:09:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, I already feel out of my depth. I'm glad that you're in this area. And I'm curious to know how did you become interested in working with clients who have experienced religious trauma?

[00:10:09] Sam: Yeah, so I have my own story of religious trauma, and so I didn't grow up in the church, but I did choose it in my early teens, and, I was part of a very strict, fundamental, conservative church, and, as somebody who struggled with their sexuality throughout most of their life and was told that essentially I had, you know, demonic natures inside of me and that I was inherently sinful and broken.

[00:10:38] And, and so, you know, I lost a lot of people when I decided to start seeing my now wife. Um, that escalated, uh, when we chose to go to get married, um, because they, uh, we were, very, very clearly and defined, breaking the rules, but we were going a step further because we were then, making a mockery of marriage. Um, and so I lost basically everybody who I called family and community. Um, and there was huge amounts of betrayal, um, and abandonment from people who were closest to me.

[00:11:21] It's taken a while to, to unravel my own trauma and to heal from, from the most, most of it. And so, uh, I, I think once I felt like I, um, was not going to be triggered by my own clients, um, and it was going to be safe enough for me to see people in this space, um, I recognized the gap really quickly that, uh, there is not a lot of people in Australia working in this space.

[00:11:49] Bronwyn: Thank you for sharing your experience with us. And I'm so saddened to hear that that was your experience. it sounds like it provides a deep empathy from you to be able to connect with your clients.

[00:12:01] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I find the people, come to somebody with lived experience of religious trauma because it is like a different language. And, one of the biggest things for me is that I never want my clients to feel like they need to educate me, and to teach me things. Um, and so just as, um, I would refer, um. to perhaps an ex Muslim who has religious trauma. For somebody, I don't know a lot about the Muslim faith, so I speak primarily from a Christian perspective, um, and so it's really important, I find, for a lot of people with religious trauma to go to somebody who has lived experience.

[00:12:44] Bronwyn: Could you tell us a bit about, um, if you feel comfortable, like how you, your healing pathway, and then we can go into what healing pathway you take with clients.

[00:12:56] Sam: Yeah. So, part of my healing was pulling apart. It was, it's, it was a lot of pulling apart. Um, pulling apart of, of doctrines that were basically, um, seared into my being, um, that told me that I was not okay at my core. And so I did that with, um, another, uh, therapist who was an ex pastor, um, who knew, I, what I really wanted and what I really needed was somebody that I could wrestle back and forth and ask those actual questions, and, you know, and, you know, not have him preach, but him have, be able to understand the language that I was speaking, to understand the verses that I was bringing up, um, and things like that.

[00:13:45] Um, but also it was just about, uh, learning to trust my intuition, learning to trust myself. Um, a big part of a fundamental religion is that you don't trust yourself. Um, because you are taught, um, that your feelings are not to be trusted. Um, that they are of the world and not of God, and so everything is outsourced.

[00:14:11] And so when that happens, you don't develop critical thinking skills. You don't develop the ability to trust your own gut instinct. And so it was just. wrestling with a lot of different questions, um, learning to just be able to make small decisions and know that they wouldn't have eternal consequences.

[00:14:31] But there was, you know, just like, any other trauma, it's in your body. And so it's, you know, working on ways to move the emotion through your body, learning mindfulness and stillness, and for that stillness to not be directly associated with prayer or something like that. So there's a lot of things that therapists will, um, will encourage like journaling and stillness and mindfulness. Um, and if you aren't aware that somebody might have that religious trauma background, um, or if they are not even aware, that might be part of the reason why some people struggle with that, because there can be connotations that come with that, that, um, provide a lot of rigidity, and a lot of, obsessive and compulsive ritualistic behaviors. In terms of how I work with clients, it's largely, parts based. I do a lot of parts work, um, and a lot of somatic embodied work.

[00:15:38] But also, a lot of psychoeducation as well, because a lot of the stuff that we see is, you know, is love bombing and emotional abuse and spiritual gaslighting and spiritual bypassing and all of the things that we are often taught, particularly when it comes to coercive control and family and domestic violence, we see a lot of those similar things, but just in different situations.

[00:16:09] And so it's really important for people to be able to put language to their experiences, uh, particularly if they have been with therapists where it has been, not listened to or not validated or, bypassed in particular, um, because, and, and rightly so, a lot of therapists are not trained in this space, uh, don't even know anything about it, um, don't know that, uh, you know, religion has such a, um, a positive connotation in society. Um, and so it's easy for people who don't have that understanding to not ask questions about that at all.

[00:16:52] Bronwyn: Okay, there's a few things coming up for me here. Firstly, this is such a complex area. Like, the more you're talking about it, I'm just like, whoa, this is massive, right? Um, so I truly commend you for working in this area. And then the other thing that was coming to mind was, I wondered if it could be hard for clients to develop a trusting relationship with you, because here you, are being like, hey, this is gaslighting. And they're like, But my, but my religion tells me that this is love. Um, I just wondered like, is that something that you grapple with?

[00:17:23] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, it's, to be honest, unless somebody has left their, their church or has been, kicked out or excommunicated from their community, if they are still in that faith setting, it is a huge step that they are even in my room because therapy, therapy does not get a good rap in a lot of churches.

[00:17:49] Bronwyn: Oh, I didn't know that. That's really interesting.

[00:17:50] Sam: Yeah, yeah, particularly, um, so, like... pastors and leaders might send you to a counsellor, but largely, um, and, and not all, I don't need, like, I want to preface this by saying, like, not all churches, but there is this, there is a systemic problem of, um, of churches sending people to counsellors who are not actually trained counselors. They might have a pastoral qualification, they might have, um, they might be a Christian counsellor who doesn't have further training, um, in the therapy world. And what that means is that they are just essentially being sent to somebody who is trained longer going to not let them go beyond what the church believes. Um, it's like sending somebody to a safe person who is not going to let them go outside of the little box and the little bubble that they have created. Um, which means that actually people can land themselves in those spaces and get re traumatized because things like forgiveness is weaponized. You know, you are to forgive your perpetrator or you forgive your husband because, uh, you know, a lot of churches will go with no fault divorce. Um, and so divorce is not biblical.

[00:19:16] Um, and so we see women in particular, stay in violent relationships and abusive relationships because divorce is not allowed. And that's what the counselor will be pushing. Or the pastor themself will do the counseling, which is also entirely unethical.

[00:19:37] Bronwyn: Okay. I can see why somatic uh, awareness and trust in your body is so important. 'cause I could just imagine somebody in this situation being like, my body and my feelings are telling me that this is wrong, that these are unforgivable circumstances, and that I don't believe forgiveness is possible. That's what my, my experience is telling me. And then they may be met with somebody who's like. No, it's forgiveness, you know, and then that leads to them being like, I can't trust my body, myself, my thoughts.

[00:20:07] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, and they're being taught on a regular basis that their body is not trustworthy. Um, you know, that their body is sinful, that it is just essentially a home, uh, like a temporary home whilst we are on earth. Um, and so it is, um, you know, It is not something that it... critical thinking and body awareness, um, and trusting your feelings are not things that are developed. In fact, they're things that are, um, are often oppressed and actively told, um, or actively taught against them.

[00:20:50] Bronwyn: Do you disclose to clients that you've had your own experience with religious faith? Like, because it sounds like you come from a peer based perspective.

[00:20:58] Sam: Yeah, so I'm very open, uh, like on all of my social media, I tend, I tend to talk from an eye perspective. Um, I wrote my most of my story, and have an ebook that people can download. Um, and so, yeah, I'm very open about my story and I find that that creates an ease for a lot of people.

[00:21:24] Bronwyn: Which I think is so wonderful. It sounds like it's so important to have clients know that someone has been there. They understand, like you said, they don't have to undertake the labour of educating their therapist, which can create an additional step for them.

[00:21:36] Do you ever have people say to you like, oh, but you've got an issue with the church and that's why you're thinking this. Like, do they ever have that scepticism?

[00:21:46] Sam: Sometimes I will get that on social media. I don't tend to, I don't tend to get that in the room. Um, yeah, I, I find that, most people are not going to pay me to come and tell me that they think I'm rubbish.

[00:22:01] Bronwyn: That makes sense.

[00:22:02] Sam: Although they, I mean, they can if they want.

[00:22:05] Bronwyn: If you want to spend your money that way!

[00:22:07] Sam: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I will, um, I will have people on my social media tell me that what I'm saying is not, you know, biblically correct, or, um, that's just a very small minority, uh, brand or flavour of church. And so, yeah, sometimes I will get that on social media, um, but that's okay.

[00:22:31] Bronwyn: How do you cope with that? Because I think it might be interesting for our listeners. I think some of them will be early career practitioners and some of them are very nervous about going out on a limb about things that are important to them, like even discussing trans rights and they feel that's pretty scary for them.

[00:22:48] Um, so I just wondered how you cope with folks who might have different perspectives to you on social media and sometimes be quite critical.

[00:22:55] Sam: Yeah. I think, had I, had this been when I was very early in my career, I probably would not have handled it the way that I do now, which is mostly I just laugh it off. Um, Sometimes if it's really, uh, intense, I might screenshot it because the marketing part of me goes, Oh, I can probably use that in a later post or something like that.

[00:23:21] Um, but I mean, you know, for example, like, you know, we're recording this in June, so it's pride month. Um, and I got somebody, somebody commented on my post saying that if you merge the two words pride month together, that it has a demon in the middle of it. Um, yeah, so like most of the time it is incredibly illogical, um, and incredibly irrational.

[00:23:49] I can -

[00:23:50] Bronwyn: trying -

[00:23:50] Sam: Trying to work it out?

[00:23:51] Bronwyn: I'm trying, to like work it out. I was like, I was like, technically.

[00:23:54] Sam: Yeah, technically it does. I mean, they're not wrong. Yeah, then, yeah, they're not wrong.

[00:24:00] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:24:01] Sam: Most of, like, those sorts of things, um, I tend to go, that's, like, that's fine, good, good for you, and I just tend to block and delete the comment.

[00:24:11] Bronwyn: I was just like trying to

[00:24:12] think of like other words that end in D E and I was like pide months and then they're going to be like that's demon. Pide's are like demons. Anyway, okay, yeah, so most of the time you just kind of move on.

[00:24:23] Sam: Yeah, most of the time it's just a block and delete. Like, if it's something that I feel like they're actually going to have a back and forth dialogue, I'm not scared of a little bit of banter with somebody, but I always want it to be constructive because I'm aware other people are going to see these comments and other people might not be able to just let them, you know, water off a duck's back sort of mentality. That they might actually have, a reaction to those comments. Yeah, so most of the time I get rid of them.

[00:24:58] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing that with us. I'm wondering if we can turn to this question, which is, what do most people get wrong about religious trauma or how religion might affect people and their mental health?

[00:25:14] Sam: Yeah, I think, you know, we've already touched on one, which is that, like anybody, there are a handful of us who work in religious trauma, and I think most people think that we are just like, church hating, bitter, angry, ex Christians and that's not the case. Some of the best religious trauma therapists that I know still identify as a Christian or as a progressive Christian. And so I think there is the assumption that we're just angry, bitter, ex Christians.

[00:25:49] And also, I think there is the assumption that, um, to heal and to process religious trauma means that you need to abandon your faith. And that's also not the case. Um, so I work, yeah, I work with many people who, uh, their faith is an integral part of their, um, their identity. And, and it's then less about, it's not about breaking apart the doctrine, it's just about let's process what's happening in your body. And perhaps, you know, what has happened, you know, if there, if there was, um, sexual abuse or something like that, we're processing the, the abuse and getting some understanding and some language around what happened.

[00:26:35] Um, and, and it just is a space for them to unpack without feeling like they need to completely abandon their faith. That's not the case. And we can, in some time, you know, in some cases, um, utilize, uh, the way that they see their faith playing out in their life as a real resource and a strength for them. So it is always, always up to the person themselves as to where that lands, um, for them. it is not a, a deconversion process at all.

[00:27:12] Bronwyn: Yeah, really important because I think some people and maybe even clients may fear if I go speak about this she's gonna say you need to leave the church. Yeah.

[00:27:22] Sam: And, and it doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be a conversation about what impact is the environment having on you, particularly if, um, they are being emotionally or psychologically manipulated or abused by somebody in the church. If you are there. most of the time, you know, once, twice, sometimes upwards of multiple times a week, we want to have a conversation about how is that environment impacting you? But it's never about, uh, you need to abandon God or you need to abandon your faith. Um, because we actually want to move out of that extremist thinking and into something that is much more nuanced. Yeah.

[00:28:05] Bronwyn: Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of what you were saying earlier about the reducing the black and white thinking.

[00:28:10] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:28:12] Bronwyn: So I'm wondering, like, how do you navigate balancing respecting a client's religious beliefs and then addressing the harmful effects, that nuance in all aspects of the client's life?

[00:28:25] Sam: Yeah, it's not the easiest thing and it's, and it's largely going to depend on the person that's sitting in front of you. And, As in any other therapy situation, the relationship that you build with them is always paramount and I now trust my own instinct to know whether something is going to be safe to be brought up, and, and how that plays out.

[00:28:54] Um, but largely, um, if there is something that I'm kind of like, oh, I don't know how to broach this with them. I might ask broader questions to try and actually get them to that place without me having to say it.

[00:29:10] Um, yeah, so if it's something that, like, I, I really don't feel like, uh, they're going to get to, or the questioning hasn't led in that direction.... um, you know, particularly if there's something like gaslighting or, you know, something really manipulative happening. Um, I might just say, I'm just spitballing here. What does this sound like to you? And, and I'll just sort of, you know, say it in, I, I am a very, casual, I tend to wing most things in life. Um, and so, yeah, I will just, I will just spitball it with them and, and say, like, How does that land with you? Like, what does that sound like to you? And, and they might completely shut it down and I'll go, okay. Like, and, and, and it doesn't mean that we won't come back to it. Um, because I remember even for myself, I argued and argued with my own therapist. I was like, it's not religious trauma. It's not spiritual abuse. It's not any of these things, because sometimes that language has a real connotation and a real heaviness to it. Um, and so it's hard language for people to, to self identify, identify with.

[00:30:34] Um, and so, gentle, easy does it. Um, if something is not landing with them, circle back at another point. It's never off the table, it's just put to the side until perhaps the client is, uh, is in a space where, um, that language might sit better with them. Um, it might never, and that's okay. Cause that's their journey, but It's less about, I think, I think clients will, um, will pick up on any, disrespectful or disingenuous nature in you. Yeah.

[00:31:14] Bronwyn: That makes a lot of sense and I assume it would be the same for clients who, uh, they might perceive you as having an agenda, like, that you need to leave the church. They'll pick up on that. They'll know, like, she's just trying to change my mind. She wants me to leave the church. She wants me to abandon people.

[00:31:27] It really resonates with me what you're just describing because it sounds like the kind of approach that I actually have used in the past with clients who have experienced domestic abuse. And I might say like, you know, this, this situation or what you've just described to me, That reminds me of something we talked about earlier with the cycle of abuse, and I just wondered what you thought, like, of that potentially fitting in with that. And they might say, no, no, no, no, not at all. Um, but you know, it's just checking out and just like, or I might say like, well, that makes me a little bit uncomfortable to hear that. Well, what's, what's your gauge on this situation? Um, so it is checking out, going very slowly, um, gently. Yeah.

[00:32:04] Sam: Absolutely. And I, and I think anybody who was to unpack religious trauma with somebody will notice that particularly if there is, um, any sort of leadership issues, uh, they will see things that line up with that the same cycle of abuse that we see in domestic violence in terms of we see love bombing and we see the, um, the explosion phase and the repair and, and all of those stages, all of those things are still, are still relevant. They're just in a different situation.

[00:32:38] Bronwyn: no, that really helps contextualise things. Thank you. I guess maybe my next question is like, for therapists like myself, who I don't have a religious affiliation. I used to, I went to, Catholic schools, um, I've been in the church, um, but I, I very quickly, I think through high school, um, I read a lot of books. I read The God Delusion and pretty much I was out.

[00:33:03] Sam: Yeah. I don't blame you based on that.

[00:33:07] Bronwyn: That's what I'm saying. And there's like, interestingly in the library, because I was a real library nerd, the psychology section is next to the religion section and next to philosophy section. So I was like cramming all these books along those lines. Anyway, I was out pretty early.

[00:33:18] Um, and so now I, don't affiliate with any religion. And I'm just wondering for therapists like myself who are not affiliated with any religion, I guess what I'm trying to ask is how do I not jump to conclusions about whether someone's religion is healthy or unhealthy for them?

[00:33:36] Sam: Yeah, that is a good question. Um, and I, I mean, I think part of that is regardless of anything that somebody is presenting to you, you check your own bias and your, I think part of, uh, you know, anything it's the same as if you had a trans client sitting in front of you and, you know, questioning their sexuality, or, you know, regardless of the context of what the person is wrestling with, we all come with our own stuff, and we all come with our own lived experience, whether that be not in a church or in a church.

[00:34:11] And so, I think, unpacking where your own unconscious bias is, um, and what your own assumptions are about religion in particular, uh, or church. and I think that that tends, that will be a good guiding force.

[00:34:32] Bronwyn: Great answer. Yeah.

[00:34:34] Sam: Yeah. Um, I think, you know, and people will bring it up in, in casual conversation. Um, you'll be surprised how many people, uh, who might be in front of you for a completely different issue, if you were, you know, every you know, every initial session you talk to people about their childhood and their upbringing and, tell me about the family home that you were raised in and things like that. We get a background understanding, uh, but most people are not taught to ask. Tell me about how religion or spirituality was, was seen in your home growing up.

[00:35:14] We see it a whole lot more than what people would recognize, um, particularly if they grew up with strict Catholic parents or authoritative parenting, or they went to a catholic school.

[00:35:26] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's, um, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that's true. I don't think we're taught to ask about people's religion or culture for that matter, um, in therapy. And I think the reason for that is because like with my training, it was you ask things that are clinically appropriate and relevant. And I think their view was that religion and culture is not relevant, which I personally disagree with. Um, and you do too, I can see.

[00:35:56] Sam: Yes.

[00:35:57] Bronwyn: Um, but I think like, but even extended beyond that, I reckon it got to the point where I was thinking earlier in, my career, I was like, it's rude to ask about that. Like it's their personal stuff. Whereas for you, you're saying, like, No, it's highly relevant. It's highly good to know. It's highly informative.

[00:36:13] Sam: Absolutely. Um, you know, if, if a child, even if a child grows up in, um, in a nominal Catholic family home, it tells you something about the fact that they might've grown up around strict gender roles. You know, that plays in if somebody is struggling with their gender or sexuality, or if they're, if you're seeing a couple and, um, the man of the house doesn't feel like they need to do, you know, domestic labor or something like that in the house.

[00:36:44] And so we see these sort of little streams and little threads coming out and playing out in adult lives, as well as, you know, very blatant, obvious, uh, religious trauma. It can be much, much more insidious, but just as, whether you grew up and were homeless for part of your upbringing, it is still going to impact who you are as an adult. It's still part of your childhood development.

[00:37:16] So I absolutely think that it's something that people need to be asking. I think it gives, it will give you a whole lot more context particularly if you have a bit of understanding of, uh, what religious lifestyles, um, and what church life can look like for a lot of families.

[00:37:39] Bronwyn: Thank you for recommending that. I reckon I've added it to my intake form, but you know, I feel like that's the first step for me. I've added to my intake form, but I don't talk about it with clients. I need to do it.

[00:37:49] Sam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I think it's, you know, it's not talked about because it's not taught, um, and in all of my trauma training, not once is indoctrination in there, as they say. as an option for childhood trauma. We hear about absolutely everything else, um, but we don't, we don't talk about, you know, at most we might see, uh, clergy sexual abuse. Uh, in, in that list.

[00:38:22] Bronwyn: It's so... I... I've never even seen that. I've done heaps of trauma

[00:38:25] Sam: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. It's very rare.

[00:38:29] Bronwyn: Is that invalidating for you as somebody who has gone through religious trauma? You poor thing. I'm sorry.

[00:38:34] Sam: Yeah. I mean, it's not great.

[00:38:36] Bronwyn: Mm.

[00:38:38] Sam: It's not great. Um, and, and indoctrination is one of those things that, you know, it's, you know, That is a bit of a soapbox thing for me, but it, that's, that will cause a lot of controversy. But, it, you know, indoctrination is no different. Uh, we see that in cult communities and cult like, dynamics. Uh, that doesn't just happen in a cult, that happens in a home.

[00:39:08] Bronwyn: Absolutely. Wow. This is so important. I'm so glad we're talking about this. Okay. I have a question for the early career practitioners. It's a multiple choice question. This is my ADHD non sequitur question, which is if a client comes in the room for session and they're like, I'm questioning my religion and my faith, and I've had some experience where somebody has, Um, uh, said that I can join this community, that it'd be really great, I just need to pay this amount of, I'm just making stuff up, pay this amount of money, um, and then I can come and, and God will, oh, I don't, I don't know anything, and then God will help me.

[00:39:47] Okay, let's just say that, but more eloquently. Um, A, do you freak out and refer out? So you're like, this is outside my scope, I freak out, refer out. Okay. Or B, do you investigate further and see what's happening for this client? C, something else.

[00:40:06] Sam: I, I would stay calm. I would always stay, stay calm, um, that, you know, you are, you are not going to completely, um, oh, sorry, am I allowed to swear?

[00:40:22] Bronwyn: Yeah, you're allowed to swear.

[00:40:24] Sam: Yeah, um, you're not going to completely fuck it up in one session with someone, um, so stay calm, um, but also, check in with your body and go like, why, why am I freaking out about this? Is it because I don't have any idea about this and this is terrifying to me? In which case, you still might refer out, but we want to do that obviously in a really trauma informed way.

[00:40:54] Or, is it just that, it's new? You've never had somebody present to it, present to you with it, but you might have a bit of understanding, um, around spiritual abuse or spiritual trauma or something like that. Um, but it just hits you because you know, maybe they're really, really blunt about it. And we don't expect our clients to always have that sort of bluntness in terms of, um, giving information.

[00:41:24] So I would check in and go like, why am I responding the way that I am? Um, Yeah, yeah, am I reacting to the content, or am I reacting to the way that they're telling me, or is it triggering something in my own story, or my own past? And so, yeah, I would respond according to what you find out in terms of your own experience. introspection and your own unravelling of what, what that reaction is about.

[00:41:56] But my, my, if in doubt, refer to somebody who is more knowledgeable than you in this space, just as, I don't work with eating disorders, so if I have somebody present with, you know, severe eating disorder, regardless of what it is, I'm going to refer to somebody that I know is really great and really experienced in that space.

[00:42:21] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah, I understand that because my fear, I think my fear in this is that for EMDR practitioners in particular, somebody might come in with religious trauma and then the EMDR practitioner will be like, great, we've got the target memories, we've got the positive cognition, we've got the negative cognition, we've got the body sensations, technically we're good to go. Um, and I'm wondering, do you feel like taking that approach would miss some of the nuance that's needed with counselling folk?

[00:42:50] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I think anytime, I mean, I, I'm certainly not an EMDR expert, but I think anytime we think that, uh, we can automatically just process very complex, very layered trauma, uh, the, the way that we see religious trauma play out, looks very very similar to complex PTSD. That's what we see. Yeah.

[00:43:16] Bronwyn: Yeah. I think, okay. So that, that helps with my hunch. Cause I was just like, having listened to you, um, inform us about this. I'm just like, well, this is so complex. I do feel like it would be too reductionist to kind of just be like that without exploring other aspects of the person's identity, like parts work, like you mentioned, um, and just wrestling with some of the aspects that this person is bringing to us. It sounds very important for them to feel heard and understood, um, in this process.

[00:43:44] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that can often, particularly for those who were raised or socialised as female, it is really, really easy for those people to have their voice completely annihilated or suppressed in the Church. Uh, women, women are, like, we hear the phrase, equal, but different. Um, and basically it's, it's a load of crock to basically say that men are more important and women just do the subjective stuff in terms of like being in the kitchen, the childcare, and things like that. They're not to be up the front. Their voice is not supposed to be heard. Be submissive, be meek, be pure, be holy, that kind of language.

[00:44:34] Um, and so, It's really important for some people, not all, but for a lot of people, if their voice has been suppressed, they want to tell their story. They want to feel heard. They want to be able to speak it. They want to put language to their experiences.

[00:44:51] Bronwyn: Yep. No, absolutely. Um, so it sounds like know what is happening in yourself when you hear concerns related to religion and in a trauma informed way, if you feel like it's outside of your scope, refer out and or seek consultation with somebody who has experience in this area. Yep. Awesome.

[00:45:16] And so, Sam, we're kind of coming up towards the end of our conversation. I wanted to know, is there anything that we haven't covered which you feel it's essential for early career practitioners or anybody else to know about religious trauma?

[00:45:28] Sam: Yeah, I think if, If you are working with, anybody in the queer community, in particular, uh, we have a very unique set of challenges that comes with religious trauma that those who are cisgender or heterosexual don't have, um, and there are intense levels of cognitive dissonance that are felt for people in the queer community.

[00:45:56] Um, and so I would suggest that anybody working with that demographic, um, brush up on some, some language skills in terms of you would be surprised how many people are brought up with the notion that, uh, their identity is not okay, um, in some way. Whether that has come from family, churches, or private Christian schools, um, or just from the media because we see that play out in the media in terms of discrimination bills and, suicide rates and things like that.

[00:46:33] And so, there is nearly almost always going to be a part of that um, in most people's story who are part of the queer community. I think that that's a necessary, um, a necessary thing for people to, to brush up on if they work with that demographic.

[00:46:54] Bronwyn: Absolutely. So could you just speak to the importance perhaps of, well actually, do you think it's important for clinicians to really openly back the queer community and be like, I am a queer ally, or do you think that they can kind of just leave that until they get into the therapy room?

[00:47:10] Sam: No way. No. Yeah, No, I think, I think there's also a really big difference, between, I think you need to work out whether you are queer welcoming or whether you are queer affirming because those two things are not always the same.

[00:47:25] And so if you are queer welcoming, then maybe we don't plug it because, you know, people are probably not super safe in those spaces. Um, if you are queer affirming and you are an active ally, then I would expect that, allyship requires action and it requires you to speak, um, and to actively support, um, and advocate for the queer community. So, um, I, I, would imagine, and I would expect that if somebody defines themselves as an ally. of the queer community, that they would be loud about that.

[00:48:04] Bronwyn: Yeah, excellent. Thank you. And then that would help. That also helps, like, if you imagine that you're, well, you have been in that situation, that would have helped you to feel safe.

[00:48:13] Sam: Absolutely.

[00:48:14] Bronwyn: Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that with us. It's really important.

[00:48:18] And Sam, do you have any resources or, um, professional development that you could recommend for therapists who want to learn more about this area or for supervision

[00:48:28] Sam: Yeah. So I do offer supervision. There is that avenue. I am in the works of creating an introduction to religious trauma training.

[00:48:38] Bronwyn: God, I, I, I'm so looking forward to it already!

[00:48:42] Sam: Um, because it is really needed. Um, and so I am, I am in the process of doing that and also battling my own levels of imposter syndrome in that. Um-

[00:48:55] Bronwyn: I'm so looking forward to it. I really want to hear it, whatever you have to say.

[00:48:59] Sam: Yeah, and I obviously have my ebook on my website, which is my story, but I think it will help people who maybe have no idea about this world to put some language and some experience, to, to what that is like.

[00:49:17] And I've just released a reflective workbook for those who are part of the queer community and perhaps. don't want to leave their faith or their spirituality. Um, and it's designed to, um, help you, uh, integrate and align those two things, as opposed to feel like they need to, um, be one or the other.

[00:49:38] Bronwyn: Wonderful. Thank you so much. I'm so looking forward to your course. You'll have to let us know when it's released so we can pop the link in the show notes. Okay.

[00:49:46] And Sam, if listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:49:50] Sam: Yeah. So I'm on most social medias, but I mainly live over on Instagram. Um, so I'm at Anchored Counseling Services. Um, and, uh, you can also find me at my website, which is anchoredcounselingservices.com.au.

[00:50:05] Bronwyn: Beautiful. Well, Sam, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It has genuinely been such a pleasure to learn about this area, which I have been completely ignorant about. Um, and it's so wonderful to have this very, uh, tip of the iceberg intro tour, um, which I'm sure that listeners will really benefit from. So thank you again.

[00:50:24] Sam: Thank you.

[00:50:25] Bronwyn: Great. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you loved this episode or any previous episodes, do share it with your mates, share it with your goldfish, share it with your dog, share it with anybody who can listen to it. Um, we've also got subtitles on our YouTube channel, so you can share it there.

[00:50:40] And if you really liked it as well, don't forget to give us a five star rating and review. It really does help other people find the podcast. That's a wrap for today. Thanks for listening to Mental Work. Have a good one and catch you next time. Bye.