Working therapeutically with young children (with Kate Christie)

[00:00:00] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers, you're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, your companion to early career psychology . As always, I'm your host, Dr. Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about a particular question, which is, should I get certified or accredited in a particular therapy? I think this is a really interesting subject because quite often early career psychologists can feel a lot of pressure to get certified or accredited in a particular therapy, and they might not know what it involves. So here to help us unpack it all is our previous guest, Daniela Ho Tan. Hi Daniela.

[00:00:37] Daniela: Hi Bronwyn. It's great to be back on the podcast.

[00:00:40] Bronwyn: so lovely to have you back on. I'm so glad we can talk about this. Daniela, could you please tell listeners who you are and what your non psychology passion is?

[00:00:50] Daniela: So I'm Daniela Ho Tan, I am a clinical psychologist, uh, advanced accredited schema therapist and board approved supervisor. I work in private practice in Sydney and my non psychology passion is watching the most horrifically terrible reality TVs ever, I've got the worst taste in television and at the moment I've just binged through season six of Love is Blind and I can't help but when I watch it think, oh there's a few red flags, these are a few schemas presenting!

[00:01:25] You sit there and pick out all the modes and see all the flips.

[00:01:31] Daniela: Yep. And I'm like, Oh, they really shouldn't pair. They've both got abandonment schemas. I see an anxious avoidant attachment. I just can't help it.

[00:01:38] Bronwyn: Oh, wow. Is it called Love is Blind? I don't know anything about these shows.

[00:01:41] Daniela: Oh, it's okay. So love is blind is basically, they only talk through a wall and you get matched. It's the idea that you can't see the other person and you get to know them. So you go on dates. So you start off, there's 15 men, 15 women, and they sit in these pods and they can Hear each other through a wall.

[00:02:00] And then, um, to finish it, they have to basically propose and then they get to see who they propose to. And then they do like this honeymoon thing, then they live together. And then it gets to the, like the wedding day where they stand in front of everyone and say, I do, or I don't. It's pretty bad,

[00:02:17] Bronwyn: It doesn't sound like a great way to start relationships with that amount of pressure and commitment.

[00:02:23] Daniela: Yep. Yep. And so it's, it's really interesting because once they come out of these pods, And they can see the visuals and they go into real life and integrate into each other's lives... All these stuff comes up and, you know, little red flags or people that they didn't propose to, but had a connection with, they get to see those people for the first time. So yeah, it's, it's pretty bad. I can't help it, but it is one of my passions.

[00:02:50] Bronwyn: I think it's great to have a passion outside of psychology where you can just, uh, tune out and just zone out, but it kind of doesn't sound like you're zoning out if you're analyzing it.

[00:03:02] Daniela: Uh, only in, in a very, for me, Fun, lighthearted way, but it's pretty mind numbing stuff. So, you know, you go through a full day of work and then you go home end of the day, you just watch a few episodes,

[00:03:15] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, amazing. Thank you for sharing that with us, Daniella. Okay. Daniella is an Advanced Schema accredited... how would you say the title?

[00:03:26] Daniela: advanced accredited schema therapist. I know it's a mouthful, of

[00:03:30] Bronwyn: I was like, which order do the words go in? Um, and so this is something that takes a lot of time and commitment to get. So maybe Daniella, could you please share with us what drew you to pursue certification in schema therapy and what that involved?

[00:03:47] Daniela: course. So I was fortunate enough to be trained in schema therapy very early on. I had a supervisor who guided me towards schema therapy from, um, I guess The provisional psychology days. And once I finished and I was working as a registrar, I just kept coming back to schema therapy, I really loved it. I had a big passion for it. I was encouraged to get accredited early on, but, um, at that point early on in my career, I didn't want to fully commit to a therapy just yet. And so I would do, um, some supervision in it, but I focused more on just getting confident in, you know, my bread and butter, which was CBT at the time.

[00:04:29] And then, it wasn't until a couple of years ago, just pre pandemic that I thought, well, I'm paying for all this supervision, might as well count the hours. And let's be honest, it's kind of nice when you get that tick of approval and couldn't call yourself like a accredited therapist.

[00:04:47] Um, so I went through that process. Um, I started it, I think about four years ago. So you have three years from when you finish your level two or advanced training, um, in order to be able to get your hours. But I think the fact that I was practicing schema therapy so much, it just felt like, okay, I might as well get it done. Um, because I'm getting the hours in supervision. It's something that I really enjoy. I see it as my main therapy modality. So why not?

[00:05:20] Bronwyn: Yeah, so yeah, so you were enjoying it, you used it a lot, and you're already doing supervision on it, which is a big component of becoming accredited, so it was kind of a no brainer for you.

[00:05:32] Daniela: Yeah, I I just felt like it was good also to have a supervisor who would watch back some of my recordings, which that in itself was a bit anxiety provoking, because it does remind you of back in master's training of all those cringe sessions that you have to watch back and listening to your voice.

[00:05:48] But, um, it actually really helps because once you finish and you leave uni. Unless you're recording and showing it to a supervisor, it's actually really hard to get feedback, especially in private practice, because, well, no one's watching your sessions. No one's sitting in and they're just getting a interpretation of what you're presenting in a supervision session. So you learn so much.

[00:06:09] I know it's really challenging watching yourself back, but I have definitely... Uh, improved in my skills and learnt so much through watching back my sessions and getting notes and feedback from supervisors.

[00:06:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, I echo that. I always learn something new when I watch back even just a small portion of a video of myself and it's really invaluable. So literally last week in supervision, I watched 10 minutes of a session for me and I was speeding through something. And my supervisor was like, you need to slow down. I was like, I shot it. Like it was just way too fast.

[00:06:44] Um, and it's like, you, you, you. You think that you're speaking at a fine pace, but it's only when you watch the video that you can see that you're doing something different. So I really liked that about accreditation. It's so anxiety provoking. I completely agree, but it's so beneficial as well.

[00:06:58] Daniela: Absolutely. And even just picking up on things like body language, when you have the camera zoomed out and you can see.

[00:07:07] Bronwyn: Yeah,

[00:07:07] Daniela: Client in a very different way, because when you're sitting there with them, you might be engaging more in eye contact, but just seeing the body language shifts is really interesting. And being able to actually feed that back to the client and helping them tune back into their bodies. That's something that one of my supervisors taught me that has been really invaluable in the way that I work.

[00:07:26] Bronwyn: So that's fantastic. So I think with the advanced schema accreditation, because, because listeners might already be aware that I'm doing the basic schema accreditation right now. And for that one, I need to do, I think it's 25 hours of supervision, two videos. One video is rated. by the schema supervisor. Then one video is rated by an external rater.

[00:07:49] Accompanying both of those videos needs to be a complete schema therapy formulation, which is about 15 to 20 pages. And so it's quite intense and you need to get a particular rating on these videos. So for schema therapy, there's a six point scale and you need to get four or above, but I think for the advanced, it's a bit more. Can you remember?

[00:08:11] Daniela: Yeah. So for the advance, it's 40 hours of supervision. So just a few extra, um, two videos as well, but, um, showcasing two different experiential techniques. So I did one with imagery rescripting and one with chair work. So your supervisor, um, checks. Both videos, and then you have, uh, two separate external raters. And from memory, I think it was, uh, you have to score 4. 5 out of 6 and above, but you also have to have, I think, a total score that sits at a certain point. So the rating scales are, you know, it goes across five pages.

[00:08:51] Bronwyn: It does.

[00:08:52] Daniela: Yeah, and then writing up the, uh, case formulations and you're right, it goes for about 20 pages.

[00:08:58] And for those who are clued into what's happening with the international society, it's actually being changed so that it's going to be a little bit longer. So they're going through a bit of transition at the moment, um, but that's going to probably be 25 pages.

[00:09:16] Bronwyn: Yeah, I actually found an early version of that new conceptualization when I was Googling it, because I always like to make sure I'm using the latest one. And then somebody hosted it on their website online and I looked at it and I was like, Oh my God, why is there a domain for every like healthy adult component?

[00:09:32] Daniela: Yes, yes,

[00:09:34] Bronwyn: Yep.

[00:09:35] Daniela: So if anyone listening is doing the accreditation, maybe this is a little nudge you need to get it in before they formally change it over.

[00:09:43] Bronwyn: Yeah. Oh my God. It's such a pain in the bum. Um, but, um, I guess like in doing this schema accreditation for me, I found it really beneficial because it's really helped me hone my skills. So I've actually taken several recordings of client sessions. And then I had my supervisor, Watch one of them, or actually a few of them. And she was like, this is good, but we can't submit it because it's not quite up to scratch in this area. And you can do something differently there. So it's really forced me to get really good at particularly the experiential techniques and schema therapy, which I'm really grateful for. And I feel that my clients will benefit from that.

[00:10:24] I'm wondering, what do you feel like you have benefited from pursuing the accreditation?

[00:10:29] Daniela: It has definitely improved my skills as a schema therapist in terms of really tuning into my clients more and more. And I think, you know, with the workshops that you do, you do get to role play and, uh, test out the techniques with, you know, like a colleague when you, you are doing it, but it's so different, like you said, with sitting with a supervisor and actually honing in on those techniques and, uh, one thing I noticed with the schema therapy accreditation is, um, they really want you you To be able to do it in a very traditional way. So the way that we're really taught.

[00:11:06] So, um, I think I struggled a bit at the start when there might be slight deviations because I tend to be someone who works relatively creatively. Um, but I was, um, advised by my supervisor, make sure you tick the boxes as you've been taught, because they want to make sure that before you go out and you know, it's kind of like when you get creative with CBT, you want to make sure you're actually doing it correctly first and foremost. So I found accreditation really helped with making sure that I was doing all the techniques and strategies, um, accurately.

[00:11:36] Chair work was always my slightly, um, I guess more challenging technique that I found to work with. And, um, Doing the accreditation and focusing so much on chair work really helped me. I'm so comfortable with chair work now. Without accreditation, I don't think I could have gotten there. And now I use it just really quite naturally. So it's definitely improved my skills.

[00:12:01] And, um, In terms of just case conceptualizations, when you have a supervisor who just sees things straight off the bat and demonstrates that to you as well, you start to be able to pick up on that way of thinking and conceptualization. And so you really do find that you advance your learning a lot more rapidly than say, if you're just. Kind of doing it at your own pace, which is still helpful if you do engage in deliberate self practice. But how often do we do that? I know everyone's really busy. So yeah, I think schema accreditation does actually help extend those skills quite a lot.

[00:12:36] Bronwyn: I would agree. I really agree with the idea that it extends and accelerates your learning. I found that as well with the chair work actually. And so I find chair work really challenging currently. It's way better than it used to be, but I find that it's either the best outcome. And I'm like, this is the best thing ever for the client. And it works so well, or it's a big flop. And then I'm like, Oh, it's a flop.

[00:12:59] But I think with doing the accreditation, rather than getting discouraged and giving up, it's given me purpose to be like, okay. What did I do differently there? How can I try that again? And given me the, the push to try again, rather than being like, Oh, that was scary. It's like, I'm kind of leaning into my mistakes and my learning and learning and continuing to grow.

[00:13:23] Daniela: Absolutely. And I think with the chair work, what I really benefited during accreditation was role playing my client and having my supervisor model out. And sometimes we would record that session as well so that I could actually watch back and observe how she would do it. So yeah, I think it definitely helps.

[00:13:39] And I agree with you. There were times where I thought, Oh, that was a real flop with the chair work. Cause the client didn't quite understand changing between the chairs, representing the modes. So then. You know, watching back the videos, you think about, okay, they're getting confused. Um, how can we help, you know, manage that situation? Is it actually labeling the chairs more explicitly? Because when you have many chairs, it can be hard to remember which one's the critic again, which one's the, you know, the vulnerable child.

[00:14:06] Bronwyn: So Yeah. There's a lot of like, who am I now? Yeah. And it's, I get that. That's confusing. Yeah.

[00:14:12] Daniela: Yeah. So definitely, I think, you know, watching back the recordings and making little modifications, looking at, um, where you position yourself in the room as well, these are all little things that you don't actually get to discuss unless you do really record a session and watch it back with a supervisor.

[00:14:29] Bronwyn: Totally. And the things that, like you said, we are all quite busy and it's hard to maintain a deliberate self practice... I guess practice. Um, but it's really helpful to do certification because you can do these scary skills that some therapists do avoid and they really do come into your practice. You can get better at them to the point where you do feel confident in them.

[00:14:52] Daniela: Absolutely. And I don't know if, um, everyone knows, but a percentage of the supervision sessions can also be focused on examining your own schemas and modes and your own trigger points. And I think that is something that is really quite beneficial. So understanding which of the clients might trigger off our own schemas and having a safe space to actually unpack that as well.

[00:15:17] Bronwyn: Yeah, I love doing that. I've actually done six hours of personal therapy just on schemas and I sought out a schema therapy therapist deliberately for that, so I could count as the hours, but also because I just thought it would be really useful. And it has been because then I can recognize the transference and counter transference reactions in sessions and what might be my stuff and what's their stuff. And then I can apply the appropriate reparenting response to the client stuff, knowing that it's, what's my stuff is separate from their stuff. I hope that made sense.

[00:15:48] Daniela: Absolutely. No, I definitely agree with you on that. And I think it's understanding, okay, well, which of my modes are they activating? So sometimes if they're going into that helpless surrender mode, is that actually activating my You know, compliant surrender mode in terms of wanting to, you know, support them and see that they are, um, they're really struggling. So then I go into that rescuer mode or yeah. And knowing that, Oh, that's actually not helpful. How can I step back and be the healthy adult who is actually, uh, engaging in that limited reparenting to support them to transition out of that vulnerable, that helpless surrender mode and back into their own healthy adult perhaps.

[00:16:33] Bronwyn: Totally. Daniela, could you just speak a bit to the time and financial commitments evolved in pursuing certification? Because that might be a bit of a barrier for some early career psychs.

[00:16:45] Daniela: Absolutely. So the first two trainings that you need to do. So the level one training looks at schemas. The level two training looks more at modes. I think from memory, each of the trainings is maybe about five to $600 now.

[00:17:01] And then you have, so for the advanced accreditation, you have three years after the level two training. To get all your hours. Now, like I mentioned before, you need 40 sessions of supervision. And I think you mentioned for standard, that's about 25 hours and supervision, um, rates vary across supervisors, but I'd say on average, you're looking at between 200 to $250.

[00:17:28] So when you do the math, it adds up quite a bit. So I'm terrible at math. So. So let's see if you spent $1200 on the level one, level two, or you might even do a few extra trainings, like let's say the schema therapy inside out or schema therapy for eating disorders. That might be another four or $500. So then each session, so let's say 40 times. Let's

[00:17:55] Bronwyn: I'm going to get the calculator.

[00:17:56] Daniela: And say 200. Is that $8, 000? That's $8, 000. So we're looking at on the conservative side of things, probably close to $10, 000.

[00:18:06] Bronwyn: Um, I do feel compelled to jump in here and say it is tax deductible as well.

[00:18:11] Daniela: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And if you're already getting supervision anyway, it's nice when you feel like, okay, it counts towards something. Cause we all need to have supervision hours as part of, yeah, we have to actually maintain the CPD. It's, and it's, mind you, it's spread across, let's say three years for instance, and you can get extensions if needed. So you can space it out. And there are some practices where, let's say it's a schema therapy practice, then you might actually be able to have that packaged if the supervisor is willing to provide you with, um, the hours for accreditation. So, you know, there's, there's options out there, definitely.

[00:18:55] Bronwyn: Yeah, totally. And yeah, speaking to that point, that supervision might be packaged into it. So I've done EMDR training and I did EMDR, the intro and then the advanced. And with the trainer that I did it through, which was Graham Taylor, he packaged supervision in the payment for his complete training. So then you could attend 10 hours of group supervision, which doesn't go towards accreditation, but it goes towards being able to say you are EMDR trained. So you can shop around and see whether supervision is packaged in some training workshops.

[00:19:27] Daniela: And actually, like you mentioned, um, group, uh, for group supervision in schema accreditation, that does count as well. There's a calculator that tells you how many hours you can count depending on how many people are present in the group. Because I did do, um, a, Schema therapy, group supervision for dissociative identity disorders. And I was able to count those hours as well.

[00:19:51] Bronwyn: That's really cool. So given that there is a substantial time and financial commitment to pursuing certification, not just in schema therapy, but in a lot of other therapy types, we've outlined some of the benefits that we've experienced and that you've experienced in gaining certification. How might listeners know that they are ready to pursue certification in a particular therapy?

[00:20:16] Daniela: So I would definitely say that when you find that, let's say a large percentage of the work you're doing is focused on a specific therapy, whether it be EMDR, schema therapy, or, um, Gottman couples therapy or emotion focused therapy, if a large proportion of the work you're doing. The work you're doing is in that therapy. You really enjoy it. You're, you're getting a lot of supervision in that area, then I think it's definitely worthwhile to be able to. You mentioned, um, have some tax deductions and be able to, um, commit to getting the accreditation. It's a big rewarding process. Once you get to it, it is stressful, but it definitely helps you to fine tune your skills.

[00:21:02] So I'd say if you're really feeling strongly about a certain therapy, you're doing it quite a lot. You would like to receive more referrals to do that kind of therapy, then it certainly helps you when you have your accreditation to stand out from the crowd to go, um, I'm able to offer, um, schema therapy and I'm an accredited, um, clinician, it does help you, I guess, attract more referrals in that therapy modality, if that's what you are actually wanting.

[00:21:32] Bronwyn: Yeah, I have to say that I have become quite picky with who I refer to for schema therapy. And that is because I know that you can do intro workshops to schema, but then they just go through the just, um, I don't mean to diminish the intro to schema therapy, but a lot of it is going through the schema therapy model and it might be going through the different types of schemas and the modes, but there might not be much experiential learning or learning on how to apply the schema models to different clients.

[00:22:02] So now when I think about referring my clients to a schema therapist, I actually do want somebody who's accredited because then I know for sure in my mind that they've got this standard and rigorous training to actually apply schema. I don't know if I'm being a bit snobby or is that the way that you feel as well?

[00:22:20] Daniela: If you are being snobby I'm being snobby too, I guess, in a way. And I guess it's because, you know, at the end of the day, it comes from a place of when we're referring someone on, we want to give them the best care.

[00:22:30] Bronwyn: That's exactly, I want to make sure that they are receiving that.

[00:22:33] Daniela: Absolutely. And, you know, I'm sure we've all heard some stories about people who have been told that they were receiving a certain therapy. And when you ask them a little bit more, like I've certainly been referred clients who said, Oh, I was getting schema therapy. And when I've asked them if they've done any imagery, re scripting any chair work, they've said, No, what's that? That rings alarm bells for me because I'm thinking, are you just like, you know, during the mode log book, going through like the cognitive diary, the diaries and everything, it's still useful, but you're not going to have as much shift and you're missing a big chunk of the therapy if you're not getting the experiential work, it's such a core part of schema therapy.

[00:23:15] So if I'm referring to someone who is accredited or undergoing accreditation, My understanding is, okay, they are likely to be delivering experiential techniques. And so when I'm referring clients on, I want to make sure they are getting the most out of their therapies. I think it's our duty of care to ensure that we are, um, where possible doing right by clients, because it's a lot of money.

[00:23:41] Bronwyn: It is.

[00:23:42] Daniela: It's a lot, so yeah, I think, you know, it is important. And, um, like you said before, there are clinicians sometimes who might have done level one or level two training, but maybe they're uncomfortable doing some of the techniques and I get it. It's when you first started, it feels really awkward and. When I think about when I did my level one training and how I might've done schema therapy back then versus what I, how I do it now, it does look different.

[00:24:09] Bronwyn: It looks so different. I used to be so apologetic. Like we're doing chair work. I'd be like, now we're going to do this super weird thing. And it's going to be a little weird. And then like, you know, when I was watching videos, my supervisor, she was like, what do you think the impact is of saying that to your client? That we're going to do this super weird thing. And I'm like, they're probably going to think it's weird. Do you think that makes them feel more comfortable or more uncomfortable? And I was like, probably more uncomfortable. And you know, so like how I introduced chair work even looks so different to how it used to be in the past.

[00:24:38] Daniela: Absolutely. And I remember at the start, I would have my script almost of

[00:24:44] Bronwyn: me too. Yeah.

[00:24:47] Daniela: These are the questions. And so it feels, I guess, a little bit more scripted and maybe awkward cause I wanted to make, I wanted to be so sure I did it correctly, whereas now it flows more naturally. And I'm able to pivot sometimes when no image comes up for clients, or, you know, it's, you know, we deviate, like we were talking about deviate from the script a bit, if we need modifications to be made, because the client isn't able to come up with an image or. If something is coming up that isn't from the early childhood and we can work with that.

[00:25:21] So definitely, I think, you know, once you feel quite strongly about a therapy modality, then it's worthwhile speaking to your supervisor about, is this a good time for me to get accredited and to count my hours towards that? It's important to be able to make sure that we are growing as well.

[00:25:39] I think sometimes it can get a bit stale as well. And I think doing accreditation really helped me to feel like, okay, yeah, I'm working towards something. It feels really good. Um, and then for me, it's shifted my career in terms of now I'm branching into something completely different in terms of, um, delivering trainings and getting involved in more research. And that wouldn't have happened had I not gone through accreditation and been opened up to a new world of, um, I guess, academia and training and meeting some wonderful clinicians out there.

[00:26:15] Bronwyn: Yeah. And to speak to that, I do think that deciding to pursue accreditation in a particular therapy, it is joining a community. So one of the things that stood out to me about schema therapists when I did my training was that I quite liked hanging out with them. They seemed like a really nice bunch of people. I really enjoyed my trainers. I really enjoyed other people in the field. I really liked their research and I appreciated that as someone who comes from an academic background and it was just like a community that I wanted to join. Um, I wonder if you felt the same.

[00:26:44] Daniela: Absolutely. There's so much to be gained in being able to connect with like minded individuals and I remember last year when I went to the Enlight Conference in Melbourne, which is the schema conference, I was just buzzing and everywhere I turned, I recognized a lot of people like Nadine Van der Linden. We met in a lift and, um, Tanner Davies, like a lot of people that I had seen on Facebook because they're moderators of a lot of the schema groups.

[00:27:14] Bronwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:15] Daniela: I got to see them in person and people that I had attended trainings for, you know, I've made a lot of connections and made new friendships, there's collaborations, so there's a lot to be gained and so much to learn.

[00:27:28] Bronwyn: No, totally. And I want to speak to another benefit, um, that I've noticed in myself is that I think as an early career psychologist or an earlier one, so I'm four years now into my post general registration, um, I think there was a time where I was just like trying to build my professional identity and trying to look around and see what I liked and what I could pursue further. And I feel like going further into schema therapy for me has helped ground my professional identity and what I do in therapy. And it was something that I was already doing anyway. So I was already formulating from a schema perspective not as thoroughly as I do now but it was just a model I was naturally drawn to, and so I feel like everything I do now in therapy, I can relate is back to something, I can ground it back to something, and it just makes me feel less anxious.

[00:28:16] Daniela: Absolutely. Yeah, I think when I first started out, I did, so we all have our CBT from our master's training. And then I did some ACT training, which I enjoyed. I did a bit of DBT, I did a bit of Gottman, of course I did my schema trainings. I did some cognitive processing therapy. So CPT, did IPT, basically anything.

[00:28:42] Bronwyn: All of the acronyms. Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:45] Daniela: So, which is why I think for early career psychologists, There's no rush to get accredited because you might want to test out and see, okay, what's, what's your flavor. And so I guess, you know, like you said, find your, your style. So I remember because many of us probably have done Russ Harris's ACT training and Russ is amazing, but he has a very unique style and that doesn't, I can't, replicate what he does. It wouldn't be authentic, like the way that he's able to sing, to, you know, diffuse thoughts to the sound of, to the tune of happy birthday, I can try to do it, but it doesn't always quite land. Like you were saying before, sometimes things that might flop.

[00:29:25] Bronwyn: Oh yeah. That would flop for me. Yep.

[00:29:28] Daniela: That's okay. And if I can't sell it to the client, if I can't sell it to myself, I'm not going to be able to sell it to the client. So, um, I think it's good at the start to try out and work out. What you really enjoy. And like you said, you started noticing, okay, I'm formulating. I'm thinking a lot in terms of schema, uh, therapy, conceptualization. And that's what I found for myself as well.

[00:29:49] So it just made sense that, okay, well, this is what I'm drawn to. So I'm going to just keep pursuing it and focus on that and make sure that I do it really well. Across our career span, there's a lot of time. So at the moment, I'm just focused on my schema therapy work. I don't want to rush into anything else. I had contemplated doing my EMDR training and then I was signed up to do it, but then COVID happened and, um, Chris Lee couldn't come to Sydney cause he was in WA and so I missed out on doing it. Um, but now I've actually thought, you know what? It's okay. I'm not in a rush. I have so much time. If I go through it all. Too quickly, I won't have anything else left to train in and I don't want that.

[00:30:36] Bronwyn: I really love how you shared that with us as well, Daniela, because something that I wanted to bring up with you was this pressure that some therapists might feel to pursue certifications because they wanna keep up with, and I'm air quoting here, keep up with colleagues or maintain this kind of status that they think they need to have within the field. Like, you know, do you even practice EMDR if you're not EMDR accredited? So they might feel some inadequacy showing up. And so when I hear you talk about it, you're like, look, just chill out. Like we don't have to do everything all at once.

[00:31:06] Daniela: Absolutely, let's slow down. Let's be present and mindful. And, and even though I have gotten my advanced accreditation, I still feel like there's so much left to learn. And. The clients we see are so unique that it's just, you know, about being able to continue strengthening those skills. I certainly always have something new to bring to supervision and I just want to focus on being really good at one thing before I add the other other elements to that.

[00:31:37] I mean, schema therapy is one of those therapies where it can pair very well with EMDR or I love bringing ACT into healthy adult work because I just think values, mindfulness, that all ties in beautifully with schema therapy. So, and even DBT, distress tolerance. So it's not to say that we don't incorporate elements of other therapies, but I think it's good to not get confused by trying to do too many things at the same time.

[00:32:07] So there's no rush at all. Um, I mean, unless you plan to retire five years after becoming a psychologist, you've got your whole career to be able to try out different therapies and just work through it slowly and feel confident in it.

[00:32:23] Bronwyn: Yeah, no, 100 percent and just on EMDR as well, cause I've done the EMDR, the schema, the act, the CBT, the DBT training. And I'm really glad that I did schema before I did EMDR because EMDR does involve a lot of changing people's core beliefs about themselves. So a key part of EMDR is working out what is the negative belief that people have formed about themselves as a result of the traumatic experience, and what is the positive belief that they want to have about themselves when the trauma is processed? And to do that, they actually draw on schema therapy and like the core beliefs in the different domains.

[00:32:58] Um, so I was really grateful that I knew that because then I could pick it out much easier for clients because often they don't know how they want to feel about themselves once this trauma is processed. Um, they're very much stuck in the... the difficulties that the trauma is presenting to them. So yeah, that's just my little Bronwyn pro tip. I reckon do schema before you do AMDR just personally.

[00:33:19] Daniela: Okay. That's a good tip. And I'm glad that I've done it in that order then for when I do my training.

[00:33:23] Bronwyn: Yes. Find it so much easier. I was like, phew, so glad I did this.

[00:33:27] Some things that I want to speak to. There's kind of two main areas that I still want to continue on with this episode. The first one is I want to talk about misconceptions or myths that might be surrounding certification. And then the second area is I want to talk about any taboo or uncomfortable aspects of certification. I'm going to start off with misconceptions. Is that all right? So I'm just going to read out some statements that ChatGPT gave me. Uh,

[00:33:52] Daniela: Love it.

[00:33:53] Bronwyn: About misconceptions that people might have around certification. And the first one is certification guarantees expertise. Do you agree? Disagree?

[00:34:03] Daniela: It, nothing is a guarantee. And I think even with, um, in Australia, we're not actually allowed to use that term. I'm pretty sure ARPA actually doesn't allow us, so even if we get certified, we still can't actually say we're an expert in anything.

[00:34:20] Bronwyn: Very true. Yeah. I think that's the case.

[00:34:23] Daniela: Yes. And even like, let's say even with schema therapy certification, so I'm only certified in individual therapy. There's certification for group therapy, for couples therapy, for child and adolescence, for. I think there's, there's, I'm sure there's more that I just can't think of right now, but there's actually a lot of substreams as well. And I personally would never actually feel comfortable saying I'm an expert in anything because I feel like there's always more to be learned. So sorry guys, but certification does not guarantee expertise.

[00:34:56] Bronwyn: My palms literally got more sweaty when you said like expert and I was like, no, never, never. Yeah, beginner mindset, like it's like, I know a little, but you know, there's always so much to learn, like you say.

[00:35:09] Okay. Next statement. Certification is the only path to competence. Agree? Disagree?

[00:35:16] Daniela: I don't, I don't agree with that because, um, A lot of people who are very competent schema therapists have not actually gone through the accreditation. So actually some of the trainers that I've actually attended training too. So I don't know if you've done any of Scott Kellogg's, um, transformational chair work.

[00:35:35] Bronwyn: I want to, but I have not.

[00:35:37] Daniela: Yeah. So Amanda Garcia Torres, who...

[00:35:40] Bronwyn: I've been to a workshop with her

[00:35:42] Daniela: Oh, she's incredible.

[00:35:44] Bronwyn: She's wonderful.

[00:35:45] Daniela: She's not certified.

[00:35:46] Bronwyn: Is she not?

[00:35:47] Daniela: No, not in schema therapy. Okay. She's incredible. Absolutely. And then there's a few people in the community who lead trainings and they aren't actually certified. But they're exceptional. So I don't think it's the only path to competence, but again, certification does make it easier, I guess, to know what boxes that person has ticked to deliver that work. Yeah.

[00:36:16] Bronwyn: Okay. Certification automatically leads to higher income or more clients.

[00:36:22] Daniela: I wish it led to higher income. Sorry. Um, I, I mean, I guess if you started charging a higher fee, then perhaps, but I, in my experience have not seen that certification leads to more income. Um, It can lead to more clients though, that's, I think that is true because if you are certified and let's say someone does a post saying looking for a certified schema therapist for clients presenting with X, Y, Z, then you're able to put yourself, um, forward and clients may be more attracted to someone who is able to say, they're accredited versus someone who might have training in, but is not accredited.

[00:37:06] Bronwyn: I agree. It has led to more clients than me and because they've looked me up and because I had schema therapy as an interest on my website, they've been like, I want to see someone who has an interest in schema therapy. So it has gotten me a few more clients that way. Um, with the higher income, like you say, yeah, that's only if you're charging more.

[00:37:25] Daniela: Yep.

[00:37:26] Bronwyn: I know the U S there has been, I've seen it online that people really wanted training in EMDR because that was seen as a way of getting and retaining clients. Um, but I think because EMDR got suddenly more saturated in the U S it's no longer a unique. Um, but I think IFS has kind of come out as the now unique offering.

[00:37:48] Daniela: I have noticed IFS and there's a waiting list

[00:37:51] Bronwyn: Yes. Yeah. You have to be like a lottery, like going to lottery to go into this training.

[00:37:56] Daniela: Yeah, absolutely. I'm pretty sure my name's down on that, but I, I think I put it down two years ago, so I'm still waiting.

[00:38:03] Bronwyn: Yeah, I had a, I had a look at IFS because it does have very similar principles to Schema and so I wanted to look it up. Yeah, maybe I should do the training, but I feel like it was also very expensive. So I was like, okay, I'll continue on with Schema.

[00:38:14] Anyway, I want to go to next, um, maybe some taboo or, or uncomfortable aspects of this topic, um, actually, and that it touches, um, What I said just before touches on one of them, which is that therapists may have financial constraints to pursuing certification. So this might highlight some disparities that we have in accessing training opportunities between the profession and that some therapists are not as well off as other therapists.

[00:38:40] Daniela: I think that I noticed this quite a lot when I was actually running some interviews last week, sorry, last year, I did, um, interviews looking at, okay, because we were, I was trying to do some research looking at, um, culturally responsive therapy and looking at different populations. I had the pleasure of interviewing clinicians from overseas in Asia, and one of the biggest challenges, and this feels quite taboo, is the cost.

[00:39:07] And let's, in, let's say Vietnam, in India, they are not making the same money that we might be making over here. However, they're not exactly getting discounts either on the trainings or on supervision. So it's a lot of money. And that was one of the barriers from clinicians over in Asia getting accredited. So there is that financial aspect of it.

[00:39:35] And that's also another reason why I didn't get accredited, uh, early on, because I felt there was a lot of pressure to be able to actually keep up with it within that timeframe. And. It's a lot of money. Like you and I mentioned before, like the 25 sessions or 40 sessions, they have to be somewhat regular to make the most out of it. So you make sure that you can afford that. And then you've got your other living costs as well. So it's something to factor in.

[00:40:07] Bronwyn: And I mean, that brings up an issue for me because it's like, then I might be saying that, yes, I want to refer to accredited schema therapists, but when I hear you say that some people, um, who live in asia, they may not be able to access the education. It's like they might be as equally skilled or have the capacity to be as equally skilled, but yeah, it just, it is uncomfortable, I guess, thinking about these financial disparities.

[00:40:34] Daniela: Absolutely. And so, I think it's something that over time is shifting. I certainly know that, um, the ISST does offer reduced rates for, uh, clinicians in certain countries. So they have a whole list on their website.

[00:40:51] Bronwyn: That's really fantastic.

[00:40:53] Daniela: Yeah, and I certainly think it's worthwhile asking. So there's, I think there's more and more diversity in the kind of, uh, trainers and supervisors out there who are passionate about being able to spread the work. So I'm hoping that I can jump on that ship as well and help create more opportunities for other clinicians to train in schema without it, um, being such a big financial strain on themselves and their families.

[00:41:24] Bronwyn: Oh, I hope so. Thanks, Danielle. That'd be great.

[00:41:26] Okay. Uncomfortable topic number two. So with the certification requirements, they can be very strict and maybe one concern that could arise from this is that it could prevent therapists from exploring alternative or innovative or culturally responsive ways to treatment. And I guess somebody who is very interested in the culturally responsive area, like, do you think this could be the case that if you get certified in schema therapy, maybe it is stifling culturally responsive ways to treatment.

[00:41:58] Daniela: I don't think it stifles it. I think that it definitely means that, you know, the core principles of how to deliver it. And if you can do that. adequately, then it actually means that you're able to extend upon that and get more creative and culturally responsive without foregoing what you're trying to achieve. So you don't miss the, I guess, the core of the techniques, the core of what schema therapy is going to achieve.

[00:42:28] So I definitely think that whilst, You need to submit recordings that tick all the boxes, which means a very traditional, uh, quite conservative, um, demonstration of say imagery rescripting or chair work. I've definitely had conversations with other trainers and supervisors who, and I've shown videos of how I've made modifications and been given feedback, this is good work that you're doing, it might just not tick the boxes for a rating scale. However, they can see the shift and change in the client. And then we've got the, the shift in scores if we've remeasured.

[00:43:07] So we know the therapy is working. It's just that I've had to make sure that it. Again, it's like you need to meet the need of the client. And if you can't, uh, tailor the techniques and work to do that, and you're sticking too strictly to the techniques without actually factoring in the client's background, then you may not be as effective. But I certainly think certification and, um, means that we are able to deliver the standard at a good level.

[00:43:37] Bronwyn: I would agree with you. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about cognitive behavioral therapy, because I would say that in terms of complaints about therapy that I have heard from clients, cognitive behavioral therapy stands out as the number one. And the most common complaint I hear is that therapists did thought challenging with me and it didn't work. And then when I ask for details, quite often, the way that they've experienced thought challenging has been in a way that when I think about my CBT training, either hasn't been adherent to the training or hasn't been delivered in a way that made sense to the client.

[00:44:12] So I've been like, well, of course you would have that reaction to that and that experience, but you are not willing to try this therapy at all anymore. Um, and so I actually wish we had more ways of doing, say, Socratic questioning and thought challenging and thought evaluation, just so we could get that consistency across it. Um, because I think cognitive behavioral therapy is a great therapy. Um, but I think sometimes when it's applied, it's not applied in a way that makes sense to a lot of clients.

[00:44:40] Daniela: I think sometimes it gets rushed through and then worksheets just given to the client to go, just look through this and it's not helpful. And then they're less likely to want to do it outside of session. So they're not actually practicing the skill and, or they're saying, Oh, I'm just doing it in my head and not writing it down and slowing down their thought process and having a look at what is coming up for them.

[00:45:06] So I definitely agree with you because you know, there's a reason why CBT is also considered the gold standard treatment. And there's a reason why we're all being trained in it as our core modality. So, but the delivery of it, it can look very different.

[00:45:21] And I know there are some courses out there that are three hours long and it's saying, okay, once you've done this course, you have been trained in CBT. If only that was the case, because you know, my, our whole master's degree was based around it. It it's, it's not going to be just three hours to be able to be proficient in CBT.

[00:45:42] Bronwyn: Yeah. It's so easy to get CBT wrong. I should do an episode about this because...

[00:45:47] Daniela: that's a good one.

[00:45:48] Bronwyn: yeah,

[00:45:48] Daniela: Yeah.

[00:45:49] Bronwyn: ...because yeah, if you give a client a worksheet and you're like, that's catastrophizing, like, uh, yeah, just the success rate of that is not going to be very high.

[00:45:57] Daniela: Yeah, I agree.

[00:45:59] Bronwyn: Okay, next uncomfortable topic is the influence of commercial interests on certification process.

[00:46:05] So there's an argument that there's a conflict of interest when certification programs are affiliated with specific training institutes that stand to benefit financially from increased demand from, for certification. So this could compromise the integrity or the impartiality of certification processes.

[00:46:23] An example that I can think of is IFS, so Internal Family Systems, and it's done through a specific institute. So one could make the argument that, hey, they benefit financially from promoting this therapy. How evidence based is this therapy? What are they training people in it? Is the training like up to scratch, that kind of stuff? I guess, what are your thoughts on this?

[00:46:43] Daniela: Well, the good thing about schema training is that there's so many different schools that you can train from. So I actually found that for myself, I did training across a few different trainers to be able to get, um, diversity in terms of perspectives. So I didn't feel like I just adhered to one school of training.

[00:47:07] And so I don't feel like i... there was that issue in terms of, okay, yep. I'm just, you know, all of the, um, um, money is going into one organization and then it's, you know, monopolizing the market there. I think we're lucky in the fact that a lot of trainings offered online. So you can actually, um, look out for training from all parts of the world, and I think it's important that they're all, you know, all the ISST trainers... they've ticked boxes, you know, they've gone through the vigorous steps of being able to offer this accredited training because after you get your advanced training, you need to wait two years to become a supervisor. And then I think it's another year after that. So three years after advanced to become a trainer and you still have to tick off boxes in terms of having delivered X amount of hours of training with other accredited trainers.

[00:48:00] So I think it's to ensure that the integrity of the training is there, but in Australia, there's certainly a few different schools offering training. So I don't think there's too much monopolizing of, you know, the money. And, um, certainly I don't know, As much about the IFS training and if it's just one school that, um, that offers it, uh, in terms of accreditation, then yeah, it does mean that there is some, I guess, financial gain from it. I guess at the end of the day, everyone is running a business and trying to make a living. So...

[00:48:35] Bronwyn: it's not like we're, we're saying like, this is our charity organization. It is a financial organization.

[00:48:40] Daniela: Yes, definitely. And the good thing is even with, um, when you're looking at external raters, the good news is that you can get them from anywhere. So it's not like it's necessarily always tied into one organization. So there is quite a lot of diversity.

[00:48:57] Bronwyn: Yeah. Um, I really love your response, Daniela. It's very diplomatic and thoughtful as well. Thank you. Um, but one thing that resonated with me was that there are so many trainers, like particularly in Australia of schema therapy. And I actually really like that. I don't know if it's like a very appealing thing to me because it's neurodivergent so I can like think about whether I like things or not.

[00:49:17] But like, I did my training with Chris Hayes and I love Chris Hayes style. I think he's a wonderful clinician. Um, but then when I've had my schema supervision, some of my supervisors have been like, Oh, I do it this way, or I do it this way. And I've been like, Oh, why do you do it that way? And then I get to think about what I like to do. And so like one of the key, I've had like so many... not hours of supervision, but I've had many discussions, for example, of whether to banish or reintegrate and retrain the critic, for example, um, and I've had many discussions about whether the critic is a coping mode or a thing that you need to banish. And I really like wrestling with these questions and deciding what is best.

[00:49:56] Daniela: Yes, definitely. And actually when I did, um, one of the workshops, um, I was in Rita Inan's group and Rita runs the Schema Therapy Institute down in Melbourne. And she told me that she actually advises any of her advanced, uh, so students undergoing advanced accreditation, to split their hours. So 20 hours of one supervisor and 20 hours of another supervisor. She said it helps keep it fresh. You get a different perspective. You learn a lot more from different types of supervision.

[00:50:27] And so I really found that that was a really useful tip for me. So I actually had two different supervisors and then for specific topics, I would reach out and so for instance, I had a very specific eating disorder question, so I reached out to Susan Simpson, who's in Scotland and is beautiful and so lovely. So I did an hour supervision with Susan. And then, um, like I mentioned, I did a DID group supervision with Robin Spiro in New Jersey. And so you learn so much. So, and so it, you just learn a lot from getting different perspectives.

[00:51:07] So my main two supervisors, when I did my advance was Cee Loo and also Ruth Holt. So I learned so much from each of those supervisors. So I think it's good to have, we're very lucky in Australia. Yeah. And then we've, um, just the community, the schema community and how giving the community can be that we can reach out and if I had questions on addiction, I'd probably reach out to Liz Lacey. If it was about narcissism, I would try and squeeze into Wendy Bahari's books if she was available. I know, right? Um, if it's enmeshment, then I've done Jeff Conway's training. So why not go to people who are well versed in that area? So I think it's great to be able to do that, um, because it's, it's not so strict that you can't.

[00:51:55] Bronwyn: Yes. I really enjoy not being in a schema therapy cult is my take away from that. And I'm really grateful that schema therapy is not a cult-like entity.

[00:52:03] Daniela: Definitely.

[00:52:04] Bronwyn: Yes. Those are all the uncomfortable topics I had. Daniela, is there any advice you would offer to early career psychologists who are unsure whether to pursue certification schema or a particular therapy?

[00:52:17] Daniela: I would definitely suggest that before you embark on an accreditation program that you have a chat to other people who have gained their accreditation so that they can actually talk you through the process because it's a lot to read through. I remember when I read through the schema therapy accreditation, um, paperwork, I felt very overwhelmed and I thought, there's no way I can do this. It's too much. It's too hard. I don't want to do it. So it helped to chat to a few people who had gone through the process. They broke it down. It wasn't so scary.

[00:52:49] Um, but then a really important part to consider as well is. Who do you want your supervisor to be? Because if you don't have a good supervisor to support you, then there's a risk that you might crash and burn. And we definitely don't want that because then you have that sense of, I can't do this or a sense of failure. And we definitely don't want that. So I would say, speak to a few people who are already accredited or are undertaking accreditation.

[00:53:15] And then if you feel, yes, this is definitely something I would consider. Reach out to some supervisors, see if they have availability and have a chat to them around, okay, this is what I'm thinking. This is what I can commit to. Would you recommend I start the process now? And from there you can make that decision as well. So I think it's good to get as much information as you can.

[00:53:40] Um, but also it's... There's been a lot of people who've started the process and then stopped. And that's okay as well. I don't want anyone to think that that is actually, you know, failure. For whatever reason, some people start it and then realize it's not for them and that's okay, but they've still gained a lot from the process.

[00:53:57] Bronwyn: Yeah, I did a lot of supervision in my first year of my, so I think I, I think I started my accreditation in 2022. Did a lot of supervision in that year, probably got like 15, 20 hours. And then last year I was so flat out that I only did maybe like four or five hours of schema supervision and then I'm finishing it this year. So yeah, I don't feel bad about that. It's just that sometimes life happens, and then you pick things back up or you're like, nah, this is no longer relevant for me.

[00:54:24] Daniela: Absolutely. I took a year break because I fell pregnant, had my second child and concurrently, my supervisor fell pregnant and had their second child. So we both hit pause. So, and then we. I picked it up when I was ready to, and then I finished it. So it's fine.

[00:54:41] Bronwyn: No good. Yeah. I think it's really important for early career psychs who are, who often put so much pressure on themselves and, can feel quite like they need to do things at a particular pace otherwise they're behind, to hear that it's okay to be flexible and, and consider how you're going to fit certification around life and, and make accommodations for that.

[00:55:00] Daniela: Absolutely.

[00:55:01] Bronwyn: Cool. Daniela, is there anything else that you haven't touched on today that you feel like we should have told listeners about?

[00:55:06] Daniela: I think we've pretty much covered everything that I probably would have liked to know when I was an early career psychologist, thinking about studying accreditation. If there's ever any more questions, and I'm happy for listeners to contact me as well, and I'm sure that along the way, there'll be other people who come onto your podcasts who might be able to walk listeners through other processes of certification.

[00:55:32] But I think at the moment, my only other thing to add is, you know, at the end of the day, like trust your instincts and trust your gut, that, you know, you've gone, it's not like you haven't done training. You've gone through your training to become a psychologist. So you are very competent, let's be honest to begin with, and this is just like a cherry on top. If you feel like it's the right time for you.

[00:55:54] Bronwyn: Totally. Thank you so much, Daniela. And if listeners do want to get in contact with you, where can they find you?

[00:56:00] Daniela: So I'm happy for clients to look me up on my private practice, Mind Wealth Psychology, or they can contact me if they are wanting to look at a little bit more of like culturally responsive practice through Project HoriZen. That's H O R I Z E N. And I'm happy to address any questions, discuss, um, my experience of accreditation or, um, supervision if anyone is interested. So yeah, I'm happy to support anyone who's an early career psychologist. I remember what it was like and it helps when you have a friendly person to answer any questions.

[00:56:38] Bronwyn: It helps so much. Yeah. Thank you so much, Daniela.

[00:56:41] And thank you everybody who has liked or reviewed the podcast recently. If you don't want to miss an episode, do press follow on your podcast listening app. And if you've got any topics that you want us to talk about on the show, hit me up in the DMs and social media or send an email to mentalworkpodcast@gmail.com.

[00:56:59] That's a wrap. Thanks for listening. Have a good one. Catch you next time.